In regards to DOR….

Like a Chai-Tea Enema we now enter a world of confusion and butthurt the likes of which we only vaguely understand. You may be sitting in the waiting room, trashy magazine in your little hand, someone, somewhere, sometime mentioned this was good for you and you have been feeling so down lately. Now you’re here and the cute nurse is explaining everything that’s about to happen to you, you suddenly feel like maybe a glass of Orange Juice and a good nights rest was all you needed.

This is generally how I feel about DOR. I do my best to ignore what goes on behind the borders of the Seychelles isles, but like a great mighty Elephant in a Movie theatre it consistently lumbers around getting into my view so that I can’t see anything else.

DOR is Dogs On the Run, for those of you who don’t know, a group of well-to-do Aviators who’s Philosophy is Fun. Generally they don’t much care about Drama or SL Aviation in general. What they want is to get into the air and have a good time fooling about in Planes doing whatever, Dogfights, Hanger Hockey, Pylon races, Ground Target contests etc etc Essentially everything I’m always rabbiting on that the rest of Aviation should be.

And if that’s all DOR was I wouldn’t have a problem, I’d still be a member.

Dor3

My old hanger at DOR back in 2012 when I was still a member

But there is a second DOR. A DOR that is consistently under attack from dark forces that gather in dimly lit underground rooms, rubbing their hands together and plotting their plots, patting themselves on the back for being so sneaky. This second DOR must unite both it’self and it’s allies in a mass crusade against a great Dragon which threatens all of SL Aviation. But like the great Dragons of Old the threat only exists within the mind of one man, Dor’s leader Da Admiral. Or as he’s also known as Princess Da, by me, and now by you.

I was DOR’s 3rd member, could call me one of the founders had I actually done anything[1]. On it’s birth and through-out the first year of it’s existence DOR’s mission was not to become just another Aviation/fighter group, in fact it didn’t want to be a group at all. DOR was to be an Area of close to a hundred sims of which would be nothing more than to provide a safe place for Aviations to co-exist and fly, free of biased admins, the mockery of the self-proclaimed elitists and without any product bans or judgements as to what should and should not be allowed.

dor4

For a while I was DOR tops fighter Ace and if you think I was going to leave out this picture of me kicking Vickster’s ass then you’d be wrong.

This was DOR before “Shana Day”. I was very honoured, at this point, to call Princess Da my close friend, we would speak at length to each other, giggling like school girls over the troubles and tribulations of the rest of the Community. DOR was principally made-up of the rejects of other groups at first but fully swelled to a substantial size at the collapse of the Flying Tigers. Princess Da charmed the community with his open doors policy and his free hangers for all who came, he proclaimed to be the father of ,the then, recently deceased prodigal child of SL Aviation Toni Silverweb, he was rich, having made his money in Transport and Storage and wanted nothing more than to build a vast region in her honour, regardless of the cost.

dor2

Photo of a greifer attack taken the day before Shana-Day. You can see in the background the first Shana Squad planes being rolled infront of the main hanger with a “buy here” vendor box outside each one. In the right hand corner you can see THI’s hanger. after this day all the Vendor and builder hangers would be condensed into one “shopping mall” Hanger. Only Shana had her own.

What changed was an event known as Shana Day[2]. DOR was built on a principle that it would never favour nor bow to the will of any one builder or company and we had gone far to defend that principle, yet here was Shana Carpool given pride of position in a gigantic hanger set in the centre of the first DOR region, it was set to be the telehub of the region and even rewards were issued to people who bought Shana’s Aircraft. This among other things, example being the Gender segregation of Princess Da’s Flying Vanity Circus, or the DOR Angels as they are more commonly known, as well as Princess Da’s rapid promotion to estate manager of any pretty girl who smiled at him, gave me enough cause to become concerned regarding Princess Da’s intentions. I stepped down as Estate Manager and while I remained a part of DOR I re-focused my energies elsewhere.

The new post Shana Day DOR was now more or less a Parody of it’s own principles. Rather than a Groupless region with no corporate bias it had become a strict woman-only (men tolerated) Fighters club and Display team with a heavy single corporate bias. A full year had passed and Princess Da’s 100+ region had still not been delivered after a series of bundling excuses I had lost patience. DOR was no longer the group I had helped found it was now the ego palace of a paranoid old pervert [3] who span tales of lies and conspiracies to win loyalty. Quietly I left the group [4].

Either though sheer paranoia or some vague attempt to install a Common Enemy style system of control over it’s members I don’t know but the following day when I logged in I found my In-Box full of spam.

Spam like this

DonnaBrightstar: FAGGOT ASS BITCHES BURN IN HELL AND FUCKING DIE. I DON’T ACCEPT GAY IN MY LIFE AND GOD WILL PUNISH YOU ALL!!FAGGOT ASS BITCHES BURN IN HELL AND FUCKING DIE.

Which is just one of many IM’s I would find in my In-box each almost every day from various DOR members until it stopped little over a year ago when several of their members were banned for Intolerance and Harassment, Donna included.

Cessna: (Saved Tue 22 Oct 2013 20:22:46) 07 ….i would of thought you would of caught on to the sl aviation bullshit by now …..but you looking down your nose at anyone with a ban threat is a joke furry
Mal (malcious.vuckovic): What are you talking about?

Fear and Paranoia now ruled Princess Da’s mind. Every year he changed the name of the DOR group, from DOR to DOR Angels to DOR 2014 to DOR Spearhead which is uses today. Everytime it would cast off it’s less active members and it’s newer members were greeted by a new Princess Da, this time not rich but humble, significantly younger and hard working who did everything he could to provide a safe heaven from the Drama of the outside Community and support the small time builders (basically Shana) against the corruption and domination over the larger companies (Anyone not Shana).

Every year he would spin out the same story on the 100+ regions he was “getting” as well as the five year long leg surgery he was getting/had and that only through your support could DOR survive and all who donated would be rewarded when the new region came online. he was a Hymn and a prayer away from forming a Cult.

Hi Everyone, Just wanted to fill you in on the status of what Da and I are doing at this time. We are working on some exciting things far beyond anyones expectations for our Group. just bare with us a few more weeks until we can get all the preliminary work done.
In the meantime, Vickster and Barry and Daisy have offered their sims for you to fly, have combat events etc. Until we get our sims ready for you please back them and go to these sims. We need our group to stay together and believe me it will be good for all of you when we finish our plans.

Trinka and Da –2013

Woof Bloody Woof,

Most of you will have had heard of our plans for the future of DOR by now.
Currently we don’t have a date for being online as there are still some bits to work through with LL.
We can assure you its worth the wait.
The parcels we have on Visionary isle will be kept even when our new regions are online.
These will take on the role of a teleport to the DOR welcome center on new regions and also a free place to fly.
The DOR 2014 group will be open to invites once the sims are closer to opening.
In the meantime you can Fly Here at visionary isle (no Combat) or at Vicksters New Bastogne sims and Barrys sims.
Please respect their rules and way they do things.
Any “drama” caused through our members on these sims will be taken into account when we open DOR 2014 to invitations.
Thanks Team.
We apologise for the long wait
DOG & Trinka –2013

[2014/04/12 13:58] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): Specially with your 100+ sim region yet to materialize
[2014/04/12 13:59] DOG (da.admiral): it will be ordered next week or wek after if im not in hospital that time i see surgeon your tuesday
[2014/04/12 13:59] DOG (da.admiral): gtg
[2014/04/12 13:59] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): Good luck in Surgery

Concerning sims and expanision, I know we have made promises to many about sims we have not kept so far. That does not mean that the plans are not still the same. With Dons Health issues and to some degree mine this has taken a lot longer then I wanted. Please keep the faith on sims and one day we will be enjoying them.

DOG –2014

Hi team,
I still havn’t ordered the region’s yet, its not LL’s fault or banks but it is mine.
I have been observing those who have been using our airfield, showing up at dances & supporting Vickies regions.
When I order our region’s these are the people we want with us.
I’m not interested in supplying a super flying estate to those who havn’t got the energy to support us.
In fact i don’t really want them on our regions.
Because I am carrying the cost of these regions personally I’m not really concerned about traffic or revenue from them, this is not a commercial enterprise.
SL is full of self appointed experts and people who think we can not survive without them.
Or the only way we can do this is with their vision implemented into the estate.
Well guess what, I would prefer it if these people stayed at mainland or the other region’s, they have very little knowledge and seldom ever contribute to running costs of a region.
In short they are takers or what in my native land we call bludgers.
Trinka, Vickster and myself will be the powers on our regions (in short little SL god’s) if this dosn’t suit anyone I suggest they look elsewhere to play.
As for for a eta for ordering the regions it may be tomorrow, it may be next week, I will decide that.
So please Trinka’s and my loyal friends bear with us a little longer.
Sorry if this sounds a bit dictator like or harsh but is way past time SL aviation was told some home truths.
Dog# –2014

Even had the cheek to charge a yearly subscription for early access to this Mythical continent.

becuase of the cost we ask that Dor members pay a L$2,000 donation to have early acsess to the new Dor 100+ sim region. This will be a yearly subscription nd you will get invited to the new Dor group.

End of 2014

Before it all finally ended with.

Please stop im’ing Don about the new regions. He is very tired and now had a headache. We know they are late but please be paitence it will be worth it

-Trinka 2015

Their last mention of it was some point back in February this year and I don’t think it has been brought up again, I presume everyone was refunded their “yearly subscription” as…

“We never charge money for being part of dor”

Anyway back to me.

[05:45] DA Admiral: you are a despicable little creep.

I should point out these are not snippets of a convo, they are genuinely just random messages I would receive from Princess Da whenever he felt in the mood to dish out the abuse.

[06:12] DA Admiral: DO not come near DOR

[12:13] DA Admiral:I WILL kill YOU!

[12:43] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): yoitaKE OFF ANGEL TAG JEBNNY
[12:43] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): angekl tag jenny
[12:43] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): its not to be woirn here
[12:43] Jennytryit: ok 🙂
[12:44] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): he y homo
[12:44] Vickster Freiin von Kühn (vickster.kuhn): easy dog this is a family event
[12:44] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): Hi Toni
[12:45] Pearline Sweetwater: yes! my grandaughter is watching on this “G” sim!!
[12:45] Pearline Sweetwater snickers
[12:45] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): im greifing you poofter
[12:45] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): We prefer the term “homosexual”
[12:45] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): gouing top cry to lindens
[12:45] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): you timker bell poofter
[12:46] Trinka ‘Pinky’ Adored (trinka.adored): /
[12:46] Trinka ‘Pinky’ Adored (trinka.adored): uit
[12:46] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): Nice to see you too Don
[12:46] Trinka ‘Pinky’ Adored (trinka.adored): Don Stop
[12:46] Trinka ‘Pinky’ Adored (trinka.adored): quit that right now
[12:48] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): oh mal will wear a dress
[12:48] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): he into that
[12:48] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): dam right I will
[12:48] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): and not only that
[12:48] DOG…Don Admiral (da.admiral): fgaggot
[12:49] Mal (malcious.vuckovic): I will be the prettiest princess there is! (and I was)[5]

For two years Princess Da played the game of insult cat and mouse with me even going so far as to try and call me up and home [6]. I wasn’t the only one, pretty much anyone of note who left DOR was subject to the same level of abuse. Princess Da hated the idea that there existed people who knew about his habit of re-inventing himself that were outside his control and while Princess Da was always quick to shout Woof Bloody Woof and proclaim that DOR was the best pilots in SL and was really all about fun his next notice was never short of the next list of targets as he attempted time and time again to weaponize DOR against the ever increasing threats he saw in his head.

Threats such as product bans.

[12:07] Pazuzu Nakim: Keep in mind who is behind the bans and do not buy their products or visit their sims.
[12:08] Pazuzu Nakim: Why put your hard earned money into the pockets of people who want to try and bully other builders?
[12:09] Pazuzu Nakim: Or the people who choose to fly an aircraft that they do not agree with?
[12:09] Pazuzu Nakim: stop buying the haters products or supporting their sims until they dry up and blow away

Which is a good thing too since:

[05:45] DA Admiral: thank christ you products are not allowed on DOR, Aeon is an Angel compared to you,.

[08:41] DA Admiral: simpkle my sims my rules end of story
[08:42] Malcious Vuckovic: So you just want to ban Joe’s products “Becuase you say so”
[08:42] DA Admiral: they are banned
[ 08:42] DA Admiral: I can if I want
[08:43] DA Admiral: yes they wont be promoted sold or allowed to enter in competitions at DOR
[08:43] Malcious Vuckovic: Why?
[08:43] DA Admiral: tell him to go get cuddles from anmok

[08:45]  DA Admiral: hes a turncoat who forgot who the hell he is and attacked shana so fuck joe sparrow

[08:45]  DA Admiral: i will not allow you to compete with shana

You can go ahead and add “Hypocritical” to his list of Bullshit if you want.

Today the threat is the secret Monopoly trying to be installed by the likes of Joe Sparrow and Tank Kwaszes by banning Dani products from two Airports, yesterday it was MCE and like leaflets from a Doomsday Cult hundreds of notecards depicting MCE as some cruel and unusual Punishment filled the skies and minds of anyone who would listen. Prior to that it was mesh and DOR played host to the first “anti-mesh” sim and protest group who’s existence seemed to consist of glaring angrily at Aeon Voom whenever he was around. Before that it was Flying Tigers, New Bastogne and other ‘combat communities’ that would tear this community apart with their win-at-all-costs elitism, before that it was Aeon Voom himself, before that is was player poaching and well, you get the idea.

MCE aside, which we’ll talk about a different day, The problem with any of these “threats” is there are all Hypothetical. When Princess Da warns the Community about the secret attempts by non-Shana companies to Monopolise the Aviation Market, he doesn’t have any proof, he has anecdotal evidence at best by which I mean he can tell a convincing story but offers only guesswork as to why Joe, Aeon or Tank specifically want to ban Dani planes even though they don’t compete with him on any level, specially Joe who’s already made clear he has no plans to expand his range of one plane, Tank who really doesn’t care and Aeon who has expressed no interest in building Airliners to compete with Dani and even went so far as to state he was more interested in stopping the increasing number of people hanging round Honah Lee trying to sell Plane models game-ripped from Warthunder like back-alley traders selling guns and drugs from a brown trench coat.

All of this has had an effect on DOR. In it’s Golden Age of 2012 DOR was the biggest aviation group that has been and probably will ever be on SL with near enough 600 members. It commanded the respect of nearly every other Aviation group and even a number of builders with both Joe Sparrow and Aeon Voom happy to provide free aircraft for it’s members (All since replaced by Shana Aircraft of course). Now it was only earlier this year it celebrated it’s 100th member and today stands at a rather glum 128 people, which also includes the various landowners, invited builders and dignitaries from other communities, a vast number of Alts and anyone who buys a Shana plane (though buying a Shana may no longer get you an automatic invite to DOR, couldn’t find anyone to check for me).

f4 phantom

Only known photo of the rare Astral-Tek A4 Phantom, built as a freebie jet for DOR to Princess Da’s exact specifications. Was never finished.

f-16_001

A DOR F-16 with the pre-Mutley DOR logo showing the Kiwi Bird, the national animal of new Zealand.

dor5

We had fun with Aeon’s B1 Crash physics, in the background you can just make out the Squadron A-4 Skyhawk Aeon had donated.

Shana

The Inevitable replacement. Two planes from a different builder were put among this display to show DOR isn’t “all shana” see if you can spot them.

Princess Da, I feel almost sorry to say, is a shadow of the friend I one had. His notices became increasingly erratic and incredibly self-indulgent as we finally entered the month of August 2015 where the shit hit the fan. On the first day we were subject to this notice

Sat, Aug 01 2015 10:06:54 AM PDT

Irish has mentioned SLE may be talking to some of you.
I would be most grateful if none of you discuss DOR business with any SL publication ,./
Fell free top discuss your own activities not DOR ones
Don

And at this point my journalist senses tingle. Screaming “Do no talk to the press” is basically an invitation for me to start prodding things with a stick and scream back “Why what are you hiding?”. SLE or the Second Life Enquirer is one of SL’s oldest Newspapers though it’s hardly known for it’s hard hitting journalism, instead opting to talk about fashion, new shops that are opening and tasteless “state the obvious” opinion pieces full of random poetry and countless selfies. I had planned to investigate a little further into the matter with a little joke on DOR’s expense being that I asked SLE what they wanted to talk to DOR about and found in his Paranoia Princess Da had only denied himself some free publicity.

but then this happened.

After careful consideration and our Discusions with Gin Beamish Don and I are sadly announcing we are in no position right now to continue our DOR Sims at Seychelles.
I have attached a notecard with what is happening described. Gin will be furnishing 4 sims for our group. Our officers will take over the day to day running of DOR. Please continue to donate to Gin to help her keep us going until we recover from our present health problems. A complete list of officers will be announced.
Please read the note.
Officers not to Contact Until Don and I are healthy again

Fair enough I thought, DOR’s ran out of money again, wouldn’t be for the first time. But this was followed by post after post after post of Self-congratulate bullcrap proclaiming that DOR was the best and urging everyone to donate.

I want to personally thank all those that answered the call to keep DOR and Seychelles Isles Battle Sims alive for another month. I am very impressed with the level of dedication and commitment you folks have. This is rare in SL and I honored to have you with us. Those that contributed to saving the sims have asked me to keep their names private so for the private few, we are grateful.

Also, I want to wish both Don and Trinka a speedy recovery. We all care for you hope to see you back soon.

Irish

Woof Bloody Woof!
Re Irish’s post about the support given by DOR over this trying time.
He is so right about DOR, we are a very special collection of people and its great to see that recognised. Thanks for the Post Irish.
Trinka and I will be back in the swing of things again as soon as we are able.
In the meantime “keep the home fires burning team” you are the best of the best.
Don

Hi Folks,
This is just a note to thank all of you who have aready helped securing the sims for this month. We have a great family here. Many of you who wish to donate to help us further may do so at the LM given. We would like to place things on an even more secure footing with folks who might be able to donate a monthly amount. Any wishing to help us should contact Gin (starylight) or myself.
I’m truly amazed at how our family has pulled together in this time of difficulty.

On and on it went. I heard stories that DOR users had managed to raise over 125k lindens to keep DOR alive, according to the donation boxes and I was impressed, I genuinely was but for some reason it wasn’t enough.

Hi Folks,

There has been a lot of things happening in these last few weeks. The end of the month will be the end of Dor’s sims in the Seychelles area. We tried and were not successful at raising the funds needed to maintain those sims in Seychelles. In order to keep our family together, we’ve taken a standalone homestead sim which is open for combat, flying, sailing, airplane soccer, and relaxing in. The base sim is ready for you all to use, but some tweaking still remains.

Special thanks are due to Don, Trinka and Gin for their hard work in Seychelles as well as countless restarts at all hours of the day for for our events. With everything going on in DOR lately, I’d like to reassure you that our family is stronger than ever.

See you at the dogfight!

Now wait a moment I said. 125k and they can’t even keep a few of the sims open? I became suspicious and I made enquires. According to the people I spoke with at Seychelles DOR was already three months behind on it’s rent and despite a number of plans proposed by IrishGent to save DOR by consolidating down sims, co-operating with Luke and the Flying Tigers to pull in resources and even and offer to wave off part of DOR’s debt but Princess Da would have none of it and choose himself ,this is according to the Seychelles isles estate manager I spoke to, to shut down DOR.

So I asked the question “what happened to the Money?” and apparently I wasn’t the only one. A lot of people got suspicious and finally about a week ago this happened.

I have just found out that for some reason Don Received a E mail today that his account was removed from Second Life. No Explanation was given and we are trying to find out what is going on.
For the time being he will be on AviWorld and has the equivalent of 200 sl regions there.
Please do not leave group as i will keep you posted on what is going on with his account.

Thanks

Trinka

Now an account removal is different to a suspension. In the case of a suspension you are simply prevent from logging in, you receive a warning notice and an email telling you the reason for your suspension and when you can log back in. A removal is done without warning, you are immediately logged off and your account is deleted which is exactly what happened. There are very few reasons why LL would do this as this is normally a punishment left to greifers, hackers, Age players and those subject to a lawsuit. However there is one other reason and that is Fraud.

Now this is my opinion and I need to remind you it is JUST a guess. But claiming you have no money, asking for donations and then when you get those donations keeping the money for yourself and refusing to use it for it’s intended purpose, even when other help is offered, is probably considered quite serious fraud.

This would collaborate to previous “questionable” statements made by Princess Da for example the claim to be the Father of former SL Aviation Legend Toni Silverweb, who planned to use the Millions he had made in the Storage and Haulage industry to build the Legacy she was trying to hard to achieve. Yet those “millions” vanish every few months when Don finds himself rushed off to hospital to have his leg amputated for the 6th time and only through your kind donations can DOR be saved.

Both Trinka and I still are dealing with RL medical issues, so support of the regions through use and donations at this time are important. Once Again Team Thanks for the great support, it makes us so proud to be part of your team.

Pinky & DOG.

As most of you know Don and I have struggled with Health Problems over the past year. Even with that we have tried to have sims available for you to fly during this period. Don entered the hospital today and we just cannot be sure how much time and how many operations it is going to take fo fix his legs. We have closed most of our dor sims with the exception of a few on the mainland. We are keeping the group and we like always will fight our way back with new sims when things are better. Remember we need your donations now more than ever. Every little bit helps

Trinka

Or help pay his “medical” bills

As you know Don is going through a lot of dangerious opperations to fix his legs. He is carrying the cost of these sims on his own shoulders and now has to find extra money for his hospital bills. We do not ever ask you pay to be part of Dor so Donation thermometer have been placed and it is greatly appreciated.
Thanks to those who continue to support us so generously.

[00:00:54] <Redacted>: the few remaining DOR sims all have donation meters asking for you to pledge your support to help pay Don’s medical bills
[00:01:14] <Redacted>: Don lives in new Zealand which has free medical care
[00:01:23] <Redacted>: he is the lowest of the low#

Princess Da is back in SL under his new account name OscarMonster and despite having no money to pay for SL’s rent he was bought the equivalent of 200 sims in a Second Life rival grid call AviNation (he’s not lying they are there, go check) and has heavily hinted that this will be the future home of DOR. AviNations doesn’t have a good physics engine and no aircraft builders so exactly what DOR intends to fly once it gets there is unknown to me.

Though something else to consider here too. Between all the nonsense, behind every attempt Princess Da has made to weaponize the patrons of DOR against whatever new thing was grabbing his attention, DOR itself continued on, often oblivious to what it’s Supreme Leader was up to. It’s officers and more dedicated patrons organised events, made prizes, ran groups, encouraged each other and essentially did nothing more than a group of friends just having a good time. With all that it has shown in it’s willingness to keep the group afloat through donations DOR could decide right here and now that it doesn’t need Princess Da and all of the bullcrap mentioned above and rather than re-form under his tainted banner; instead become the group DOR was supposed to be. a group of well-to-do Aviators who’s Philosophy is Fun. Not much caring about Drama or SL Aviation in general. What they want is to get into the air and have a good time fucking about in Planes doing whatever, Dogfights, Hanger Hockey, Pylon races, Ground Target contests etc etc Essentially everything I’m always bitching that the rest of Aviation should be.

That Can’t be too much to ask.

[1] Aside from write the rules, the DOR code and mission statement, organise several events, handle their admin training, solve an exceptional number of disputes between members and get them the support of Joe Sparrow from Astral-Tek who created and donated a vast horde of freebie’s including provide fighter jets.

[2] Shana Day was a one and-never-repeated (as far as I’m aware) day where all Shana products were placed at 25% off to all DOR members, Shana flags were hung and specific Shana-only events were organised. It was kinda like a slightly shit Christmas as I recall.

[3] If or not Trinka (Princess Da’s SL Wife) was aware of just how many of the Dor Angels were invited up to P’Da’s personal love shack I’ll never know.

[4] Alright there was some Drama concerning sim called New Ravenloft and a Pirate Hooker sim Princess Da slapped on next to it but if I were to explain all this things he “gone did” we’d be here all day.

[5] Trinka apologised for him because of his behaviour here and he was catechized for it.

[6] Back when we were friends a select number of the DOR admins had my number for “emergencies”. Now you know who my restraining order was against, and you thought you could stop me with a few nasty comments, Ha!

TL;DR

[16:39] DA Admiral: Stopped crying yet?

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35 thoughts on “In regards to DOR….

  1. Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

    Heh… I would love to go to AviNation and trounce the majority of their pilots… the good ones they banned or fed to a troublemaking little thing who likes selling her sims to Brazilians and banning when her regulars get too good and start seeing how they back legitimately cheater designs for modern dogfighting.

    Like

  2. Ghost says:

    Well, what to say to that… Well Done Mal, your restraint is admirable.. Personally, after being in SL for over 6 years (yeah i know – i am still a noob) I have to say that I have never heard of DOR, I have heard of and flew the Seychelles Sims but never had any contact with DOR. Why is it when all this drama was going on, I missed it.???? I guess that most ( if not all) of the members of the SL Aviation community are upright, loyal and honest folks. Thank you Mal, If ya aint have written this particular “rant” (and i mean that in the nicest possible way) I for one would never have known about Princess da and the obvious fraud that was perpertrated on the members of his cult…. It never ceases to amaze me how easily folks can be decieved and how often they accept the same lies and excuses over and over again… If any of the members of DOR still have and lindens left, I do have this wonderful Bridge in Australia (RL not SL) just waiting to be bought. Comes with free road network, free harbour and has amazing views of the Sidney Opera house… Just let me know of you would like to buy it !!!!!!!

    Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      I was a DOR member as well who got sick of the drama. Let’s just say it was starting to look more and more like a Harem Anime. That and all of the supposedly dead user avatars showing up the next day right as rain as nothing happened.

      BTW at one time I was a next-door neighbor to Mal. confused him with all the inflatable furnishings… :p

      Like

  3. Jess MacDougal (Tesserra) says:

    A good rant which sheds a lot of light on what was going on over there.

    I had no idea! Maybe those left in DoR will remember what the group was for. Hope springs eternal, of course, but Idiots, like German tourists and their towels on the sun-loungers, are everywhere.

    Like

  4. Karl Reisman says:

    As I remember it, DOR was born from the fallout of the collapse of the SLAC (A group of Sims called the Second Life Aviation Community), and the bans in effect there-in. The collapse of SLAC, was precipitated by acrimony between the various members, and dissatisfaction of group members of their leadership, and finally punctuated by the death of Toni Silverweb. DOR’s promise was freedom from the Group and builder related Drama, and upon it’s realization was for a short while, a wonderful selection of sims for flying and occasionally combat. I joined and supplied Don with affiliate vendors that paid out 25% of sales to him. I enjoyed the community, and the uniquely smooth flying there, but sadly those original 16 sims went away. I still continued to support DOR, even though after Shana day, I had to put up with the occasional IM from Don suggesting that I join forces with Shana Carpool. I abhor Shana’s products, but since Don was a friend, I was politely dismissive, every time. The last major support was making sure that Australian and New Zealand squadrons were represented in the select-able paints of the THI Lancaster. But they went from being “agnostic” about builders, to being the Shana Carpool fan club, and my interest cooled. Recently, Don’s explosive reaction to the anti-ripping campaign, and full throated support of Anita Babii, pushed me farther away. I haven’t left the group, yet, but with these revelations, I am not eager to re-supply DOR with new vendors, which probably won’t be used anyway. I miss the days of just lazing about in those 16 sims, flying my Te-Craft K5Y above the grid of 16 sims back in the day, and passing a friendly greeting to Trinka and Don.

    Like

  5. Tank kwaszes says:

    I know there were many there who liked to deamonize me and other builders who did not fit their ideals. In the end the only thing that could stick was we didn’t support them and I’d say they made sure we wouldnt. After everything that had happened around the time the group started I am glad I chose caution, it saved me the headache as I could just pay them the little attention they deserved from me.

    Like

  6. Never met da.admiral. The DOR people I have met have been polite and friendly. They seem to be continuing to have their fun combat so they must have some place to do it in. Otherwise, sounds like the founder is kind of an ass.

    Like

  7. Barry Foehammer says:

    As DOR’s current second life commander, I feel the need to clarify a few misconceptions In your rant. There are no “back room dragonslayers” only folks wanting to have fun, and to escape the silliness of those who have nothing better to do then complain and berate us for what we do.

    I don’t know what shana day is, or was, but I do know that we don’t hand out free planes. We do have rezzers to allow folks to fly with us, or to try out flying for the first time. To us it’s important that newcomers get something to fly that is better than the freebies on the market. Why this is an issue for you I don’t understand, we have vendors from several builders in our store and more will come as we contact them I’m sure.

    “Strict women only fighters club”? jeez last time I checked I was a male of the species as are at least half of my officers. We don’t really care what gender or species or whatever else folks want to be, it’s SL and that is kinda the point. As to the Angels being Don’s harem, that’s just so wrong on so many levels I won’t even go there.

    Nobody ever paid to be part of any DOR group. It may have been considered, but it was never implemented, nor was there any need to.

    Product bans are interesting, in Seychelles we used Joe Sparrows ships and many Amok planes were in evidence, in fact one of the groups used them exclusively. It’s true that we use Shana’s planes most in ww2 dogfights, but it’s not an enforced rule or anything. It’s simply preference. If you want to win you don’t take a golf cart to Daytona.

    No Mal, no free memberships are given for buying Shana’s planes. memberships at DOR are what they always have been, free and for people who want to fly. Nothing else matters. People like you, and your fan club only divide and make the community look silly. We get many new folks joining us who are refuges from other groups because we are inclusive.

    As to your comments about the sims in Seychelles, it simply was not practical to maintain them. Their costs were far higher than the alternative. So we chose the alternative. No real mystery there, sorry.

    DOR’s future is bright, there is work on another grid, and we remain here as well. We don’t need freebies from Joe or Aeon, or anything MCE. We use vice because it’s proven. I have many planes where the builder has long since left SL. The system still works, and the planes function well. The difficulty I have with MCE and Amok is simple. I don’t like that someone can and will reach into my inventory and change a product that I paid for. Updates are updates, but they should not change what system a product uses, nor should they radically change what you purchased. To me it’s like someone breaking into my house and changing my TV or the milk in my fridge to a different brand. I bought what I bought, leave it alone! Tinfoil hat?, ask those folks who struggle to fly their helicopters now.

    Now Mal, if you really could kick Vicks ass all the time, I doubt you’d bother taking pictures of the scoreboard.

    Barry Foehammer

    Like

    • Aeon Voom says:

      As i often before stated. the people who bought the VICE version of an airplane. Kept that version unchanged. The old birds do try to update. But that can be dismissed if not desired.
      So i do not change VICE birds in your inventory. I just stopped rendering support for an outdated combat system. Just as other companies stop rendering support for outdated software. That is common practice in the entirety of the industry from small to large.
      For forced updates on MCE aircraft. That is called re-balancing. MCE is a gaming environment and rebalancing and updates are integral part of any gaming experience. As a matter of fact, it happens in any multiplayer game out there, again from small to large. These updates ensure gaming balance.
      And yes this includes the flight engine cores. As they are among the weapons, an important part of gaming balance.
      One reason why i dropped support for VICE was, among the really harsh limitations (out of the box) the inability to balance game play properly. It has nothing to do with a monopoly or any other sort of conspiracy theory. It is plain and simple the lack of balancing the gaming experience. VICE and MCE are both game systems. It’s that simple. Imagine you play chess against someone who, by sheer will can switch all of his figures on the board to Queens. Of course you could do the same. And then it does not take a second look that both of the players just destroyed the chess game by making every figurine on the board a Queen. MCE makes sure that everyone has a normal set of Chess figures out on the board.
      So if you want to play broken chess with queens only. Your call. But do not drag my company name into this with false statements. Thank you.

      Like

      • Barry Foehammer says:

        Indeed, RPG’s do have to rebalance at times, that’s part of it, but to use your own analogy the chessboard is SL not MCE world. If you were marketing MCE by subscription, or advertising your planes as MCE game pieces then you have a leg to stand on. They are marketed as vehicles in SL, and since many, if not most who buy them never fly in combat, then “rebalancing” for the sake of the game doesn’t apply. One can clearly see that your focus is on your system and not your customers.

        As for the chess pieces, I don’t “rebalance” vice, so I’m not changing any of my pieces to queens, nor am I changing what pieces do or do not do.

        Like

      • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

        Barry, stop trying to reframe the narrative. It’s not funny.

        Like

      • Aeon Voom says:

        Since this is not entirely clear yet.
        Virtual goods of any sort are considered software. They are bits and bytes on some server, not directly in your posession.
        Nowadays, by paying for software, you do not buy the software, you do not buy the code. You buy the right to use that software.
        And that is how the industry handles this.
        Let’s take for example another multiplayer game. War Thunder. In WT you pay Gaijin a fee to be allowed to use a premium plane. But Gaijin can and does change the specs and visuals of the plane as they see fit. And you cannot opt out of this. That is all part of the entirety of the game.
        And that is absolutely required. Players do funny things with your games. They find exploits or use an item not as it was initially intended. Then you do need to step in and balance things out. And yes it always pisses off a minority in online games. Perhaps the most vocal of the lot. But on the bottomline it is the best for the overall game and it gets enjoyed by far more people total (the not so vocal part).

        Now i do understand that a lot of makers in SL do this here for fun and just goof off.
        Which is great, really, i’m all for diversity.
        But what people do not see, or do not want to see is, that i try to push my products into a more proper game fashion. With proper stats, proper balancing and interesting combat options. That is also why i opted out of VICE. If you are surrounded by people who just are in for the quick buck or do not take game balancing seriously, yet can disrupt your gaming experience, then you think about options. And my option was simply to make my own system, that fits my products the best.
        I do not force anyone to use MCE. As i said before. If you want, you can keep your VICE versions of the vehicles and can live happy forever after. Simple.
        And if you do not like how i run my company. Then it is totally your liberty to decide with your purse. IE: Not buy my products. I can live with that.

        And please stop using the term RPG so loosely. RPG means Roleplaying Game. Clue is in the title.
        Comparing MCE to an RPG is as if you tried comparing Battlefield with Skyrim.

        Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      Thing is, software isn’t milk. Neither is code. A creator has the right to update his code at any time and in a way that makes it easy for the consumer to obtain a update for the product they bought.

      Yep. Here’s Fortnight Baxton defending Aeon. Why? I know the truth. Not the hatchetmen devoted to creating a monopoly of VICE only.

      To be honest I’d rather see multiple systems in play, and let the market sort out the winner.

      Like

      • Barry Foehammer says:

        So then the real question becomes what exactly does your hard earned cash really buy? or is it simply a rental?

        Your sense of truth is a bit warped, the folks at DOR , and I think I can speak for them reasonable accurately, don’t really care about monopolies or anything else. We use vice, we have fun and we’re growing, If that’s a crime in your mind, too bad. If you want to use MCE, have fun, we don’t particularly care.

        As to your inane comment about screen shots, I expect that would violate TOS, but even so there were a significant number of folks who were suspended or banned at that time for griefing, using illegal viewers and using illegal products. None were from DOR.

        Like

        • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

          Also, Barry, you still have the product. I think that is a important little thing to mention and make clear so that your point is clarified.

          Like

  8. MeganAnn Mills says:

    Very amusing and well-written, if not a bit masturbatory. But then, there was a lot of time and drama to cover in that story. I was witness to the formation of DOR, along with Emmie McMahn and Jamie Kessler, and it closely involved the demise of a good friend (Toni) in what I can only describe as the Original Sin of drama in which DOR was born. Since I still don’t know the truth about it, I won’t go into the details of how suspect the whole story of Toni’s death was, but we accepted it at the time in the suspension of disbelief that often accompanies grief of loss.

    We three were the original beneficiaries of DA’s supposed application of Toni’s legacy, and I guess were the original “Angels” while we skeptically indulged his fantasy of 50+ (the number grew with each failed promise) flying sims. Being the serious managers we were, we began to notice inconsistencies in the plans one would need to make for such a large investment in virtual land and pixel places (virtually nothing), and the unwillingness of DA to discuss anything but trying to emulate “G” of the flying Tiggers. More alarming, however, were the character patterns he displayed that loyalty to him personally was paramount over loyalty to the Project. Any discussion that turned to how this massive investment should be set up, we got the ubiquitous “gtg” , almost as if a neglected wife walked in on a virtually cheating husband in GOR sims, and he ran off.

    So bizarre and seemingly random was the name when he came up with “Dogs On the Run”, that I pressed him on what the hell it was from. I was informed it was from some 1960’s cartoon show, and suddenly many things fell into place. The entire formation and concept of DOR was a cartoon. We were not members, and I only joined intermittently as required to do some business, though he did not give up trying to get us involved with the “harem” (as it exclusively was initially).

    As with all groups, there was a core of active people, and a periphery of looser associated members. The core group was exclusively female, and males who entered it did not last long. That did not go unnoticed, and was disturbing enough socially that it was hard to take the group seriously. DA was good at manipulating emotionally, and seemed threatened by male intruders who might recognize the tactic, or at least not be subject to it. I believe he was not worried that another male might take his women away, but rather expose him.

    I have always liked Trinka, and considered her a friend outside of whatever her choices with DOR were. From the outset, though, DA raised nearly every character red flag that my experience in SL and degree in Psychology has developed, and our little antenna were twitching about him from Day One. We three eventually formed a parody group called Drama On the Run, much to his annoyance.

    MeganAnn Mills

    ps The foundation of the continuity from Toni to DA was laid by Toni herself toward the end, who mysteriously referenced her rich and reclusive father. He was, she said, planning to fund her dream, and she eventually (a secret to be kept) revealed his name in SL was DA Admiral. Had she not, we would have never taken him seriously. Emmie was Toni’s number 2 in Kiwi Chicks, and I was always guided by her opinions of Toni. The way DA tried to manipulate her was despicable, in my opinion.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. Tayler Cale says:

    I once rented a slip from SLWB because i like combat and this airport at first seemed to be the perfect place until I flew my Shana carpool Zero.
    My airplane was knocked out of the water sims into a ban line on the far shore by a greifing push object.

    When I went back to SLWB I see a small group of people standing at the sim edge laughing about what they had just done to me.
    Two of the people laughing in the group were the airport’s owners. Tank and Karl.

    Tank was encouraging the person with the push object to shoot another person flying by named Toschia.

    When my rent ran out I moved to Seychelles area to fly and play combat without people greifing me. At no time has anyone from D.O.R. asked me for any money to fly in their sims.

    Many people became tired of the childish people who think that they own the Linden Lab combat waters and moved their groups to a friendly place away from greifers who use push weapons and orbits against airplanes that they do not like.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Joe Sparrow says:

    i considered toni silverweb a good friend. she was next door to our sim when we were a part of the first slace project. we were at gungnir and while almost nobody supported us or ATMS she wasn’t afraid to. the kiwi F-16 was something prior to dor we were doing for her. it completely broke me when i heard the news that she passed. i felt like i failed to deliver i was deeply upset for a long time. i gave almost 100 of them out completely free to dor when it opened. i don’t want to think princess DA is toni. toni was a nice person. DA is. easily the worst excuse for a human being i have ever met. i regret ever doing so.

    as for the jeogeot gulf. we had a massive griefer wave when dor opened in seychelles
    i personally don’t believe it was a coincidence we were a threat to them afterall

    its completely and utterly unfair to just outright claim the ENTIRE GULF is bad because of one person. seriously what the complete hell. i built something wonderful at tulagi and your all avoiding it because your all so willing to take any spoonful of bullshit someone feeds you and focus on the bad instead of the good. why no mention of the freight system or tulagi or even guadalcanal. you wouldnt last a day in my shoes living the HELL ive been through just trying survive as a company. just trying make something fun all the while always having a boot on my throat by people like DOR! i was with vice day one i made the first respawn systems. i made the first guided missiles. CMS came after i am the grandfather of what vice is today and you all ignore me. i finally get something and you all want to tear it down. you have no idea how much this all pisses me off sometimes. almost 10 years on sl and barely anything to show for it. i was hoping to jump into a real job with a game studio years ago using sl as a stepping stone

    but whatever your all so happy to hope it drys up and blows away like dor wanted. instead of giving me a chance to make things work. this game is so fucked up no wonder nobody plays it anymore. ll cant even give sims to people like you without you trying to find a reason to hate on them. things were easier years back in 2008 when my sim was the only vice gound/air combat area. if any of you actually remembered you would actually care about how much ive done for this community.

    Rentals still open in Guadalcanal if you want to make a change for the better.

    Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      I like what you’re doing there, and I do know who among the community are salting the earth. At some point I’d like to talk to you and Aeon. It just sucks that I’m only really able to enjoy SL once a weekend. >_<

      Like

      • Joe Sparrow says:

        id prefer to stay out of the drama but people seem to bring it my way anyways. dor even tried to ban ZSK’s P-51 at release. one single plane was all the guy had. his company wasn’t even a week old in the aviation biz. its just sad. so much for supporting new companies. just why. why does this need to happen.

        feel free to contact me on sl if you need. im not a bad guy just really really quiet and not too outspoken. i spend too much time minding my own business in my “evil” sandbox lair usually scripting things and ignoring most of the world around me.

        Like

  11. DOR threatened by the Jeogeot bunch? Get real. They don’t need you. They have a sim of their own they are happy to play in. I don’t think they care what you do over there. I do think the reverse is true though. You are threatened by an active air combat group that you and the others over there have absolutely no control over or input into. I think that drives you nuts. I think it makes it even worse that they are having a great time flying and doing their thing when it seems the griefer and troll issues over in Jeogeot make it less than fun to try to fly in. Apparently the amount of griefing one gets is influenced by what planes one flies and who one knows over there.

    I completely believe what Tayler reported and it’s not the only such incident I’ve heard from various people who went over there to have fun. I think you and the other land owners over there know who a lot of the trouble makers are and you tolerate them because they are “friends”. That’s the reputation you and the other land owners over there have. You want to change it? Start enforcing a zero tolerance policy for that sort of behavior against anyone who griefs or trolls any other pilot for any reason. Boot them ban them and let the aviation group know who they are so those who wish can follow suit. I promise the first one who tests that and gets banned there and around Nautilus and the Blake will send an important message to everyone who thinks it’s lolz worthy to mess with people who aren’t part of their little clique.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Joe Sparrow says:

      if you feel you can lend a hand in the gulf by all means spend some time around there rather then just making bland statements and accusing me of being a part of hate groups simply because you hate other sims in the area. my sims are not part of the civil aviation “clique” do not compare me to such

      tank is my landlord because i have a real life disposition that makes it hard for me to hold the necessary things for owning sims. and unlike dor im not going to flail my arms around and scream pity me. i work myself to death for what i have

      guadalcanal never has nor ever will ban any aircraft from any creator. what the other sims do is up to them. but if your going to continue to bash my sims simply because you hate other nearby sims your no better. im trying very hard to keep my sims neutral because a community wont work when someone puts one creator over another.

      if you see something tell me rather then just assuming. ill deal with trolls myself

      Liked by 1 person

      • FlyingWarfox says:

        Well Joe, I have never wanted pity of anyone in the Gulf, just fair play and fun.

        You should seriously look up what those 3 words mean, I was there the day you ruined a WW2 event in the gulf.

        I can explain what happened very well, DOR did organize an event and was able to gather a quite large number of pilots, it was all fun until you showed up with your modern destroyer and started shooting missiles to WW2 fighters, which ruined and ended the event.

        Now tell me how I am supposed to go and play WW2 in your own sims when not even you are a good and fair player.

        ‘if you see something tell me rather then just assuming. ill deal with trolls myself’

        Ok, I guess I’m troll. Whatever Joe, you should really take care of your attitude and your actions.

        Like

        • malcious says:

          I remember this. I remember because myself and a few others were invited to an “anything goes” combat party in the Gulf after it had started. I remember the event going quite well and a lot of people having fun, save for the few DOR members who just wanted to scream and bitch and over dramatise how “corrupt” the region was and how they would never think about coming back.
          The rest of us ignored you and had a good evening, of course had you told anyone it was WWII vehicles only we probably would have turned up in ZSK P-51’s and I am not above using Shana’s in the company allows it.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Ok, fair enough. I apologize for lumping you in with Tank and his crowd. You’re mostly about the ships and submarines and such in any case. I appreciate the offer to come over and ‘help’ but that would mean having to deal with a group of people I find rather unpleasant on a regular basis. They don’t like me any better so it’seasiest for all to avoid that area since I have zero interest in combat flying. I applaud your stance on not banning based on aircraft creator even if it’s largely symbolic in the case of Dani since he doesn’t really do WWII aircraft these days.

        As for DOR not wanting to use the P-51. It wasn’t because it was a bad plane, but DOR flyers are into single sim combat. The P-51 as great a plane as it is is simply not suited to that sort of flying. Like it or not, DOR uses planes that are unrealistically maneuverable (they are aware of that fact by the way). They do so because they think it’s more fun to do it that way and stick to one sim. If the sims were two or three times longer on a side, they might well be using something else.

        Like

      • Cornelius Fanshaw says:

        Mal, it was never an “anything goes party”, it was a themed Battle of Britain event that I organised on my airfield in Tarrington. Members DOR, JG52 and a couple of other WWII groups attended. All told we had about 30 people taking part with the Luftwaffe attacking the RAF base and everyone was having a great time. About an hour into the event Joe turned up in his modern destroyer and started firing missiles at both sides indiscriminately. That basically ended the event there and then. This was the first big event I ran there and since that time it has become increasingly difficult to encourage people to fly in the Gulf. I switched to running WWI events using a different combat system but even those were griefed by people using sim crashers. In the end I just abandoned my airfield and my land because it became obvious that the Gulf was pretty much a no go zone and it was pointless trying to organise any battles there.
        I’m sick of all the petty manufacturer squabbles and group rivalries, I’ve always bought planes from anyone and been a member loads of different groups. People need to step back and looks and how all this rivalry looks to the rest of the community. This sort of behavior kills the fun for everyone and puts people off flying.

        Like

        • malcious says:

          Ah I’m sorry I must have been thinking of a different event. We set-up a central events group for the Gulf so people could post about events and let everyone else know what the rules and stakes are but you’re right about the Gulf, there is just too much segregation in the combat community to see it work.
          The Jeogeot Gulf is my project but it’s still sitting half completed, yes build has been turned on but that’s all and I gave LL a very specific list of requirements, sadly for them 2 and a half years is considered a quick response time and quite frankly I’m done with their attitude.

          Like

  12. Joe Sparrow says:

    and i did apologize publicly for my actions. everyone makes mistakes it takes a stronger person to admit their faults. the event was not announced in any way shape or form to the other people in the gulf. my hate for dor’s attacks on me blinded my actions.

    if you want to help the community now then. i can issue you a challenge along with the rest of dor. if you want change if you want to fix things then i can see about giving some of my land to you guys. you cant fault me for trying. i don’t see anyone else actually trying for peace in the community.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Barry Foehammer says:

      I’ve never heard anything about us banning any builder, I’m thinking I would know if we had. I watched a pilot flying a zsk mustang on our sim yesterday as a matter of fact.

      Since you dislike DA so much ” DA is. easily the worst excuse for a human being i have ever met. i regret ever doing so.” One would think your products would be banned yet DA went out of his way to assure folks in several notices that all builders vehicles were in fact welcome, including and specifically yours.

      Events in the gulf need to be looked at with simple common sense, if that is common there. There was no need for any group to report or announce any action in the gulf, those sims are owned by LL not any admiralty group or communications group. There was no justification for attacking ww2 planes with a guided missile destroyer.

      Like

      • Joe Sparrow says:

        the bans were years back after i picked up my sim and disconnected from dor. i simply left quietly and wound up being verbally assaulted for the greater part of a few years for it. every product released was met with a violent private message. hate for DA is a strong word

        Like

    • Cornelius Fanshaw says:

      I’d just like to point out that the event wasn’t a “DOR” event, it was organised by me and consisted of a themed attack on my RAF airfield in Tarrington by the Luftwaffe. A number of groups were invited to take part and anyone would have been welcomed if they had been flying WWII planes. The event wasn’t widely advertised as we didn’t want to alert potential griefers and we had more than enough people to stress the sims considerably! There would not have been any problem had you rezzed a WWII ship without missiles and joined in!

      Like

  13. Cornelius Fanshaw says:

    Oh and for the record I sailed Joe’s ships and flew ZSK planes in the Seychelles with no problem. I own the majority of the ships Joe has made and most of the ZSK planes. I do my damnedest to remain impartial when buying vehicles and try to keep out of all the drama, but in this case it was an event that I organised myself so now I’ve got dragged into this!

    Like

  14. […] members to fly. i also see people i dont even know listening to this garbage and agreeing with Mal. https://malqusition.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/445/ I would like each of you to read this and you will understand exactly what i mean. It is long and […]

    Like

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