…Which led to this…

I’ve been in-dated with IM’s recently regarding Tig’s new product the AT-802 Air Tractor.

Tig Airtractor_001

Tig is better known for her Helicopters so Spijkers and Wingtips branded Airplanes are something of a rarity and often highly anticipated. Having teased everyone for months sitting in the corner at HLT Airfield in Honah Lee Trudeau the final announcement of it’s completion and public release at the (moderately cheap) price of L$ 1,700 got everyone so excited we briefly forgot that we all hate each other.

Unless of course you’re Me or any one of the “Anti-Dani group” in which case the very day this was made available for sale we started to receive weird trolly messages concerning why Dani planes weren’t allowed at certain airports which always ended with “But Tig downloads so why can’t Dani?”. Soon those messages grew in number, a crowd became a storm and a storm became a flood which brings us to today.

Last night I received 20 IM’s from people all with accusations that Tig was a downloader. Most had empty threats but almost all of them had the same proof. The same link to the same website and the same images.

Tig proof

The thing is this was not news to me. I was already very much aware of this website and this specific model and, with help from several others in the “anti-Dani camp” we were able to confirm that Tig’s AT-802 and the 802 shown on this website share the same wireframe components. Essentially Tig’s AT-802 is downloaded and this would seem to be the source. So Tig’s a hypocrite, banning discussion of users who download models while using one herself an open and shut case right? Of course not, read on dear reader for there is more to this story than most people would like you to know.

The amount of attention this story has been trying to get has raised some interesting issues of it’s own. Aside from the excessive amount of IM’s I’ve received regarding this several “blogs” have also been created with the “Hypocrisy of SL Builders” as their only intended story and there is now a group in SL that has been created with the specific goal of giving this story as much attention as physically possible and my own blogs Spam filter has been going crazy as an ever increasing number of people attempt to post the exact same copy-paste comment highlighting Tig’s “Hippocratic” behaviour.

Tig herself has been IM’d by numerous interested parties with threats, all demanding Tig “do something” or else they will go public with this story, blackmail essentially, quite a serious crime and not something experienced by anyone else accused of downloading which, aside from flipping the “hyipocrosy” accusation on it’s head does leave us with one question:

Since most of these actions seemed to come from obvious Dani Supporters I would like to know what exactly is their point in aggressively exposing Tig like this?

   Does Dani download and essentially use copybotting to create his products and that’s ok because others also do it?

or

   Is downloading wrong and those who do it should be punished?

Keep in mind these two statements contradict each other and you cannot agree to both. And can we please have no more “Oh I don’t care what I fly and this is all stupid LOL” comments please, if you took time out to read this article and comment then you DO care and therefore you are lying to me and I don’t appreciate it.

If you genuinely don’t care then here is Starbuckk Serapis’s review of Carollynn85’s PC-6. Released 26th of December to which this whole drama is rather overshadowing.

 

The other question regarding this is why wait till now? The AT-802 has been on display for several months, wireframes and all, in public at Honah Lee Trudeau. Yet instead of immediately exposing this, it would seem that whoever first found the AT-802 displayed on the webpage above specifically waited until the aircraft had gone up for sale then released the information to the public, specifically to a group of people who would make the most noise and create the most drama over it.

Add to that the threats and from a different perspective this would almost seem like an attempt at character assassination. Upon hearing that the product she was selling was a download Tig was horrified. Her initial reaction was to immediately pull the item from sale and tender her resignation as group owner to the SL Aviation Group and I cannot help but shake the feeling that this is perhaps what the long term goal of this entire thing was.

Tig after all has caved to public pressure before, back when she had a CFM server covered here and again prior to that when she quickly changed her mind over the banning of “Dani Downloads” as a topic for discussion in the SL Aviation group. It would seem, in my opinion, that someone is once again attempting to force Tig into changing her mind on something through means of harassment and threatening behaviour.

So it would be fairly reasonable to assume that this person would be pretty embarrassed, considering the amount of trouble they have gone through to blow this story out of proportion, if it turned out that Tig’s AT-802 was in fact NOT downloaded.

Well. Trust Tig to go and spoil the big reveal.

AT802 Model and Confusion
I recently receive an IM from TrinetyLegon that the AT802 model was the same as from a free model sharing website (http://www.sharecg.com/v/74568), showing me two pictures (AT802 S&W Model version 1 and 2) as evidence.
I talked to Sylvira about it and we both were genuinely shocked and immediately went to work to replace the model with a new update 2.0 that in the end turned out better than the original with less Li.
In short Syl received the model from a friend saying she could use it without any implications.
The model was in a poor state, so Syl only took the main fuselage (including the glass), water tank and floats.
Cut them in half cleaned up the model and re-mapped and textured it.

Both Sylvira and myself made a huge mistake and we immediately sought to correct this huge blunder.
We worked day and night to replace the model and update it with version 2.

Anyone is of course invited to view and compare the new model at my store in Second Life

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Honah%20Lee%20Trudeau/147/111/23

I’ve also given TrinetyLegon my email address so she can pass this on to the original creator to contact me for my sincere apologies.
Regards,

Tig Spijkers

Yeah. For those not in the know Tig does none of her own building, she hires third party contractors to do most of it for her then does the scripting. Her friend Sylvira was handed an unfinished AT-802 model by a friend and told she could use it. So they finished it off only to find her Sly’s friend had got it off someone else who had finally finished the model and put it up for sale.

Realising their mistake they quickly removed the offending parts, re-did most of the model and updated the Aircraft. The 2.0 version no longer uses any copyrighted parts from the ShareCG model and is, to my satisfaction, an original model.

And that’s it, an honest mistake, a simple fix and an apology from Tig. No conspiracy, no hypocrisy, no back room dealings in dimly lit area’s where everyone smokes. Just a bunch of idiots who thought they had the opportunity to finally kill off Tig Spikers and leapt into the fire a little too quickly.

 

Of course I assume all the blogs that were set-up to make sure this story went public will be updated to reflect the new information presented here and will do their best to hunt down and expose those people who do sell ripped products and are not so apologetic about it.

Somehow I doubt it.

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84 thoughts on “…Which led to this…

  1. Karl Reisman says:

    I think how Tig handled this, was the proper way it should be done. with a product update, and apologies. Her modeler, Sylvira, should be more careful in the future about the provenance of any acquired mesh, or better yet, make it from scratch. I have known for a long time that Tig purchased her models or contracted them, and in the past we have discussed it, and she is scrupulous about getting the correct rights and/or paying her contractors for the mesh. She responded to this in a properly ethical way. This is the way it should be done.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      Yea we don’t see Dani removing his product when it’s shown to be a DL.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sue Ravensworth says:

        He didn’t in fact. The facts so far are that he and Bia just denied it was a DL and it looks like he simply renamed them: no more Embaer E-120, but D-120, for example.

        Like

    • MeganAnn Mills says:

      We all know how to fix this problem. Define the exact issue better (as you just did), disclose everything we can think of, and educate the groupies. Oh, and how about not eating our own as an industry? Sunshine is always the best disinfectant.

      Like

  2. Drew says:

    To be honest nothing the dani fanboys do these days surprises me. Its really quite pathetic the way they behave and they should all be ashamed of themselves.

    Like

  3. several blogs , it is one blog mine and no one else but me and another person knew about it so were the threats to tig exposing it to the public domain come from , most prob a slight untruth as i had tried to post it on the last thread here under lets widen the discussion but you never allowed it forcing me to start my own blog . news to me about this new group set up as being the one who brought this to light i,m pretty sure i would have been flooded with invites to it but guess what NO didn,t happen . if you think i,m a dani supporter then do think again on that as i do own or support his products as they are ripped from other sites which is what i,m totally against and after receiving hollow threats today from a few other creators i,m guessing they have some thing to hide so they are fair game to be looked into

    (Well. Trust Tig to go and spoil the big reveal.)
    she never spoiled anything as the blog was already hours old when she posted that notice to me then later in her build group
    Fact of the matter is had tig sent that message out when the remodeled plane was sent out it would not have come to my attention and people would have praised her for being open with what happened,takes a bigger person to admit some thing they did wrong at the time but when you keep it quiet maybe hoping no one will find out it casts doubt . my reveal forced her hand

    Like

  4. here you go again bringing him up on here and in sl groups all you are doing is giving him publicity and fueling his minions ,staying quiet and totally ignoring will hurt him more

    Like

  5. Sumaryo Asamoah says:

    I agree that the issue was handled with respect and there should be no need of people accusing her of things they have no proof of. As well Tig is not the type of person to “cheat” her way into the market. Overall I think it was taken care of and we should just enjoy flying the planes!

    Like

  6. Balthazar Almendros says:

    Mal I think you mean Inundated rather than in-dated

    Like

  7. MeganAnn Mills says:

    I don’t see that Tig has anything to apologize for, as long as SOMEONE had permission and/or license to use the model. If she didn’t disclose or credit the original artist, then a mea culpa over that may be due, but this is where the subject gets muddy and too complex for the average groupie to handle.

    The ship sailed a LONG time ago for anyone in SL Aviation to assume any creator produced an airplane from scratch. I know of only a few people for sure make their own, because I’ve seen the steps they’ve taken, Still, even before Mesh came into SL a few makers had a cadre of people working on their stuff to different extents and levels who likely weren’t credited at all because the “maker” was given the sculpt maps and textures to upload in their own names.

    When mesh first came in there were actually discussions about how MUCH (%) of a purchased mesh build had to be altered before someone could legally claim it as their own. Following someone else’s guide and set-up for a mesh object (just changing stuff) is VASTLY different from staring at a blank new project in Gimp or PS and trying to figure out the scales of the different parts of a plane from pics or plans. Yet, the inspiration and set-up that was provided by the artist went mute to history because the LAST thing the SL” maker” wanted was anyone to find out they didn’t make it from a blank new project.

    So, this has been the dirty little secret all along hiding behind the curtain of content creation magic in SL, not just SL Aviation, and there IS some legal threshold of what % constitutes it no longer being “theft”. It’s a short trip across a low bridge from that to get makers with a name using stuff provided by associates, and uploading it under their account, and allowing everyone to assume they made it from scratch.

    This includes scripts and textures, as well. I personally knew the guy who did the Pogo and original helicopter scripts (and instruments) for Bancos Milestone. He was paid for the work and agreed to the terms, but was given no credit whatsoever, and the scripts were copied into those made by Bancos, and everyone was allowed to believe he was the scripter. Melvin was a rotational genius, and rotations were a weak point with me, so I would ask Melvin for help over a formula or math.

    If what I was asking had ANY bearing at all on work he had done for Bancos, he would tell me straight out that he couldn’t help me, and the most he would do would be paste a link to the a Wiki page that would send me down my own path, with machete in hand. I learned my building ethics from people like him, and Nix Stransky/ Miko Spore.

    I’ve found in SL that those who are talented and excel at certain aspects of SL building are, by and large, kind and scrupulous to a fault. It’s the macro makers and sellers who stand on their shoulders, and those of all others who helped them learn to build in SL, who allow their egos to propel them into the rarified air of “Content Creator”. These people seem to have trouble with disclosing anything that would reduce their public status in the eyes of worshipping customers and groupies.

    So, Tig got a build from someone who got it from someone else? BIG HAIRY DEAL! Welcome to content creation in SL. The groupies have to learn that uploading stuff WITH PERMISSION AND LICENSE is perfectly fine, and they’ve been buying that crap all over SL for a long time. If she didn’t credit them….oopsie, easily fixed. The ONLY issue Dani is being accused of that is different from what people have been doing for YEARS, is THE MAN MAY NOT HAVE PERMISSION OR LICENSE!! Damn few in SL make their own stuff, top to bottom, from scratch!

    I believe Niki, Javatar, Karl, Tank, and Dru absolutely do. I can’t speak for anyone else at all in SL, which is not to imply they don’t, but no one will ever know because of the complete lack of disclosure that causes this. Park your egos at the door, people, your industry has a crisis of confidence! It’s time to DEFINE the issue and disclose all! It’s up to the LEADERS to fix this issue.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Tank Kwaszes says:

      Melvin Clawtooth, a name I’ve not seen in ages. He helped me a lot when I was starting out too in the long since forgotten region of Balance, though it wouldn’t be till Kaer sat down with me that I would begin to understand things beyond hitting numbers with a hammer. Nix Stransky, another old name I’ve not heard in a long time, she and I may have parted ways on unfriendly terms but it’d be a lie for me to call her unscrupulous. The one thing though I think all of the “old greats” (as you might call them) had in common though was they weren’t in here to make money or to even hold a parcel of land. So much in SL has become about the economy and less about just actually creating. When I started out on aircraft I had this idea that I would topple the big leaders of aviation and rise above, I’d say partly having worked with many of those people and having slowly and painstakingly clawed my way there myself I see a lot of that having changed. These days I’d prefer less to topple and more to level the playing field. This pattern of crash and grab we’ve seen of late helps no one but the person pocketing the money.

      Like

      • MeganAnn Mills says:

        I think the playing field was knowingly unleveled all over by LL when they allowed mesh into SL. Yes, I know how the pretty pictures and level of precision mesh enabled was the deal content creators were willing to make with the devil, but those of us who opposed it knew exactly where it was going. The current controversy is the child of that particular brothel.

        It’s a done deal now, and it’s a new playing field that is leveled only if you’re willing to crash and grab as well. I think those who seek to level the field through scripting more a “flight simulator” model of flight are merely creating a new field that appeals to fewer people. Which is fine, but is not the same field to be leveled. When it comes to mass appeal, nothing beats the pretty pictures and role play, and few of them have any experience to know or care what’s “realer” or not. I spend most of my time on the “main” field watching what goes on.

        As my husband loves to say, “this is the terrain on which we find ourselves deployed”. The new field is one for the “elite”, but it will never be the main field, because SL Aviation is newly populated by a majority who have a different priority, and little or no RL experience.

        Like

        • Tank Kwaszes says:

          I’ll agree that the simulator niche is just that, a niche. The important distinction that most people who jump into that forget is that it is not mainstream and they really ought to stop treating it as such. To be fair though, if someone can script something for a simulation operation they should (in theory at least) be able to also script the simpler and more rp oriented operations for the more mainstream.

          Like

      • Of course you’d like to ‘level the playing field’ Right now you and your little group of friends are down in a deep valley when it comes to relevance or influence in the Aviation community as a whole. You don’t like that new makers don’t want to acknowledge you or any authority you think you have. How dare they create and sell their aircraft without being under the umbrella of your leadership and guidance? Do you want to know who the new creators are helping? Us! The fliers who aren’t interested in vintage military aircraft. You know. the large number of us who fly around the Blake, Nautilus, Satori, and Corsica area? I’m glad for those creators because you all have continued to totally ignore us. Keep making your aircraft for Jeogeot, but don’t complain when we look elsewhere for our planes.

        Like

    • Tank Kwaszes says:

      And also because my sleep deprived mind forgot where i was also going there, Tig talked to me when she first found out about the download. She opted to act as she did because neither her not her builder were sure of what sort of strings would be attached to the model by the original creator. It was better, she felt, to apologize and make changes for the sake of the customers and transparency.

      Like

  8. I have a few questions to pose though. These are mostly rhetorical since I doubt the only ones who could legitimately answer them will do so.

    Why was Syl, an extremely talented mesh modeller if the helicopters she’s made are an indication, getting a model from a third party regardless of it’s legitimacy.

    Why wasn’t there at least some minimal checking as to whether it was a legit model to use as it would seem an issue that Tig would be especially sensitive about?

    Was this the only one of Syl’s creations that used somebody else’s model? If not, what assurances do we have that those are totally legit?

    Were the rebuilt pieces done without using the questionable model as a close reference. Does building a new part over the top of an existing part make it original? Certainly the wireframes wouldn’t match in such a case. Maybe that’s what Dani does. I don’t know, but neither does anyone else here.

    Why didn’t the announcement about this come out when version 2 of the aircraft was released? It only came to light when the spotlight was shined on the issue. Would we have heard about it at all if nobody had noticed the issue with the original model?

    I completely believe this was a mistake and not something intentional on Tig or even Syl’s parts. On the other hand, those are still legit questions to ask. For myself, it doesn’t really matter. I’d still fly the plane either way. You see I’m not on the side of things that tries to tell others what they should fly. We know who’s doing that.

    Like

    • MeganAnn Mills says:

      My hope is that this shows that the issue is complex, that there are many partially glass houses here, and just perhaps everyone in front (leaders) on the issue can be a little charitable and forgiving by admitting the shades of grey involved.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Tig Spijkers says:

      Hi Crim,
      Syl is a very talented 3D model creator and I trust her. On many projects that we have worked together, I’ve just needed to ask for something to be made, altered or whatever and she has it done in a jiffy.

      She exchanged a model with a friend and assumed it was his. The rest you already know and I’d just be repeating myself.
      As for this being the only model, I asked Syl to own up and tell me now, before this happens again, she said it was so.

      Tank and Karl pointed me to that website a several months ago, but I dismissed it, saying I am 100% sure Syl made this and not worried.
      I casually brushed it away, when I should have at least checked, my mistake!

      This is a close reference to the free model, which is a close reference to the real life Air Tractor, as anyone would hope it to be. I recall Syl showing me snap shots during the construction using technical drawings on the background.
      I’m not going to comment on any Dani issues, because this has nothing to do with him and his models.

      Why I didn’t announce this earlier?
      As I explained in a comment on someone else’s article:
      TIG SPIJKERS SAYS: I was told about this on the 29th late in my morning hours before going to bed. I had a long chat with a fellow builder, Tank about this and what to do. Later on the 30th when I logged on I talked to Sylvira and made the decision that this needed to be fixed asap. The 30th and 31st we spent rebuilding the new model and updating it before the years end. This is now one week ago and after all the other drama I have been asking myself what is the best thing to do. Make yet another statement with the current Dani issues still being discussed, or to just let it be for another week. So yes within a week of several updates and the holidays and still ongoing discussions over other issues this has forced me to prematurely make a statement.

      Thank you for believing me Crim, that means a lot.
      The Air Tractor was never meant as a huge moneymaker or anything of such sorts and I’ll be happy to sell one a week after the hype of a new plane is over.
      This is a pure pet project I’ve wanted to do for several years now and with Syl came a fantastic opportunity to do that.
      When Syl started making models for me, she was like most people that come to aviation and didn’t know the difference between an aileron and a flap. This was her first aircraft and she was of course happy to have something to help her create this plane for me.
      Syl doesn’t do this for the money, but because like me she enjoys creating things and even more so enjoys seeing these aircraft being used and enjoyed by others.

      Like

      • MeganAnn Mills says:

        Ahhh…. sunshine! I see no problem at all with anything you did, or Syl did. This seems merely a miscommunication, and you fixed the problem the best way possible. The Air Tractor is a really great build, and everyone has been enjoying it. As to how it relates to controversy, few seem aware, and none care.

        Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      Brilliant troll, Crim. You’re picking at nits that aren’t even there. You even stated it was a mistake, then imply there’s a conspiracy. That’s cognitive dissonance.

      It’s also no secret you’re a Dani supporter, so that does put a decent-sized cloud over your opinion.

      Tig posted her notice at almost the same time she released Version 2 WITH an apology. Dani hasn’t even owned up to that high a level.

      Of course, Tig is the big evil Whore of Babylon who serves the Anti-Christ of Aeon and his Illuminati.

      Like

  9. Starbuckk Serapis says:

    What keeps getting lost in the fog here is the misconception that downloading mesh is always bad. A select few of the “Anti-Dani crowd” would seem to think so. The fact is, it depends on the source. The TOS at 3D Warehouse, for example appears to me to allow pretty much any use of the works as a part of a derivative creation and does not indicate any requirement for royalty or credit to the original creator.

    The site referenced here (ShareCG) has a bit more complicated rules, but I believe from what I’ve seen there is provision for using them as a part of your own builds without breaking rules. Tig of course chooses not to use downloaded mesh of any kind. Clearly as shown above as soon as she found out it was a download she replaced it. That is an honorable position. But honestly if my read of ShareCG’s rather complicated TOS is what I THINK it is, she would not have been out of line doing so.

    The allegation of Dani’s downloads is that it came from a 100% commercial source that has no such general model license provisions. The two situations are totally non-comparable.

    Caveat: Read all TOS for yourself before using, or accusing. My take on it is my own interpretation.

    PS: Thanks for the link to my review Mal :). Much appreciated.

    Like

  10. Drake Geraln says:

    If a builder puts their model out there on the web either for sale or free and makes no stipulation on if their given credit or not, what makes it anyone else’s business how it’s used? I have yet to see anyone on either side doing the complaining who is actually the person or persons being allegedly ‘ripped off’

    Like

    • MeganAnn Mills says:

      Well, there IS a potential of customers being ripped off because someone rips mesh and gets a DMCA successfully filed against them, and the item customers paid for gets deleted from their inventory. There IS a jeopardy here, let’s not kid ourselves. I have no doubt the same people who banned Dani planes at their airports wished a DMCA would leave all those “supporters” (customers) with a loss.

      It’s no one else’s “business” legally, as you put it. In the social climate where the suspicion and principle is raised, whether it has a right to be or not, I think it benefits everyone not to walk close to a line of nondisclosure. There is no “legal” responsibility to say a word, but since so many users in SL actually DO seem to care, rightfully or not, I think it falls on those selling them to volunteer full disclosure.

      What does it hurt to do it? I don’t see a down-side to doing that, and it would restore confidence and quiet the storm. This is no longer a technical legal question, it’s one of restoring confidence to the industry as a whole by the only people who CAN do it. The builders have to take the responsible lead here, be the grownups at the table, and stop this bullshit. If for no other reason than increasing their sales.

      Or how about, simply because crediting the person who did the work is the right thing to do? If anyone even cares about what’s right and honest anymore.

      Like

      • Tank Kwaszes says:

        I agree and well put meg, an open door policy is the best course of action. I’ve tried to do this as best I can myself, keeping works in progress on display, streaming, and just generally answering questions. It’s frustrating at times but keeping in touch with your customer base is never a poor decision.

        Like

      • Drake Geraln says:

        Seems to me then that the grownup responsible thing to do is contact the original copyright holder if you think a model is being used improperly. From that point it’s on them to take the proper action if any. This way you don’t keep the community in an uproar with what may be baseless and false accusations. You are right in that it could all be avoided by making the disclosure, but it’s kind of a stretch to claim someone isn’t doing the ‘right thing’ if their following the agreed upon terms they have with a copyright holder.

        Like

        • MeganAnn Mills says:

          Absolutely! Comparing wireframe and/or texture images on web sites constitutes proof of nothing! But it’s “visually compelling”, so it’s been used as definitive “proof” by people who should know better, who then send the less informed mobs out to burn down the house to kill a “rat”. The “rat” has a mob that fights back, and everyone sits there with a surprised look on their face lamenting that they’re fighting in a burning house.

          Like

          • Drake Geraln says:

            Thus we can see that the real detrimental element to the community is not the downloader of mesh, (that is until it is proven to have been done improperly) but those who have appointed themselves the guardians of all that is mesh. This helps in knowing who we can roll our eyes at when next they post their drivel for all to see. xD

            Like

            • Tig Spijkers says:

              The SLA is not the Guardians of Copyright in SL, or the Guardians of the Galaxy.

              (just deleted a whole page of my own drivel )

              There will be some significant changes to the group leadership, to be announced soon!
              And this has nothing to do with this issue, but something I have been thinking about for a long time and goes back to the original idea of the SLA, before all the problems occurred within the group of original owners.
              Yes, the SLA had a really ugly start and now with it growing so large it needs to have those changes that were planned from the beginning to continue to represent the community.

              I think it is important to mention this before mcgregortammtom starts to believe he “forced my hand” and brought change.
              If my hand was ever forced I am sure you would feel it 😉

              Like

              • “The SLA is not the Guardians of Copyright in SL.” Well Praise the Powers that Be that you actually finally realized this. Now convince a number of the abusive as hell group mods of that and declare the entire discussion of ‘the source of the model’ to be forbidden and not salient to the group’s purpose. We don’t need the discussion to know which side people are on at this point and it should be obvious that nobody is changing their stance on the issue.

                The day somebody can bring up that they have enjoyed a flight in one of Dani’s planes without Kimiko, Tank, Tom, or anyone else jumping in with their smarmy obsequious bullshit, I’ll believe things have started changing in a positive direction.

                Either make that happen or just declare the group purpose is to be a product discussion group for a select group of the aircraft makers and stop pretending to be about aviation in general You can’t have it both ways.

                Like

                • This might come as a shock people will have opinions differing than the popular if you read my comments I am giving criticism pf his planes rather boring amount of auto level that renders maneuvers like counter rolls unnecessary. also back when I was flying his brand of plane. they has a tendency to get stuck in locations where Prims where set in a but joint. (watching them still get stuck in these types of locations shows this is not a fixed issue. Lastly they still have a bad habit of being slapped around at airports if people are forgetful and not manually set the plane to non physical when they leave the doors open.

                  Last I checked these were called Legitimate points of criticism and I have gone to Dani and Bia in person about all of them. Still not fixed! As a manager of a airport I hate cleaning up “Dani bowling” messes my tenants deserve better than to have there planes slapped around.

                  So yes until I stop seeing them being slapped around forcing me to return them and than get inundated with nasty IMs about “Why did you return my airplane?” yes I will continue to call his aircraft as Poorly scripted

                  Like

                  • MeganAnn Mills says:

                    I assume then you also autoban Fenir Stardust’s 75L fleet of huge noob planes for bad scripting? 2007 noob space ships? What else?

                    Like

                  • You’re entitled to that opinion, but the way you go about expressing it, especially as a group mod is pretty unprofessional and incites drama. I submit that for the market his planes were meant for the scripting is fine. It’s not meant to be realistic, It’s meant to work in SL for more than just people with real life pilot licences or who sit in flight sims most of the time. His planes do that very well. I’ll once again bring up as well that barring a few others, his are some of the only modern general aviation and commercial aircraft that are available. I’m sorry that we all don’t want to fly the Twin Otter and E-Tech 737 anymore. I know know don’t like airliners just as I don’t like military aircraft, however many do and we’ll buy from those who make them.

                    Like

              • mcgregortamm says:

                My statement about forcing your hand was not about the sla group ,simply about the issue of telling people the airtractor WAS a downloaded model and when you sent the note card out which was a week later and only after i put the information on my blog

                Like

  11. There are many sites on the web which are set up to distribute meshes for use in games and CGI. Pay the fee, and you get the non-exclusive right to use them. There are people in SL providing meshes on similar terms, and I know of one aircraft available from two distinct sources using the same basic mesh. The scripting is different, and many subsidiary components, but if you want to you can take an add-on texture for one and apply it to the other.

    Unfortunately, after Linden Lab changed their TOS, a few years ago, and made a huge copyright grab, several of these big commercial mesh sources on the wider web changed their TOS to disallow use of the meshes they sold on Second Life.

    ((As I recall, the problem is that everything gets sent to a resident’s viewer, it’s not an image created by Linden Lab, it’s the full original mesh in a new file format, and they didn’t restrict their claimed rights to those necessary to transmit the data over the web, or limit them to eny specific service. There’s a lot of old “copyright grab” problems in this, the internet couldn’t work without copies being made, and the Linden Lab lawyer seems to have dug out ancient internet boiler-plate which experienced lawyers have been mocking for years. At the time, it was suggested that Linden Lab had a rather incompetent legal department. The processes for handling DMCA notices didn’t seem to meet the standard laid out in the law, though some pretty big publishing outfits do questionable things there.))

    Oh yes, DMCA notices. You have to be the copyright holder, or their authorised representative. You are liable for perjury if you submit a defective notice. All these in-world campaigns are dodging that, and I wonder why? Maybe Dani is doing legitimate private deals to get the mesh. direct from the creator rather than through one of those sales sites.

    How can any of us be sure? This campaigning does make me wonder if it worth trying to come into the mesh market in SL. Is that the motive?

    Like

    • MeganAnn Mills says:

      Very nice analysis! Having watched it develop, I believe the motives for the campaign began as a self-interest (competing sales by a myriad of short-cut builders) poised on the noble cause of copyright.

      The established builders were frustrated that people could come out of no where and snipe their business (and status)without the time and effort they had put in to building. I don’t blame them for that, the market was changing. When the stirrings about that by builders in groups caused no outrage among a customer base that frankly didn’t give a crap as long as they got their toys, the frustration level increased to the point where builders took the lead in trashing the noobs. Blatant self-interest.

      The copyright issue is one the builders can get behind by projecting themselves into the position of an artist on the web who got their stuff pirated without recompense or credit, and owned the issue based on principle. Ok, I can relate to that too. The problem wasn’t the principle, or who they felt bad for, it was the actions they took while waving the banner of manufactured moral outrage. They weren’t victims of the original sin, but of the market change due to the sin. And still customers didn’t care.

      The group of established builders, and their loyal cadre of lemmings (er…followers), chose the most successful target and began a war waving a slightly tainted and misshapen banner of justice that they didn’t actually own either (not being the victims). The result, in principle, is people with an uploaded grievance going after people who they claimed uploaded mesh…..kinda ironic, ain’t it?

      The problem we face now is the “purity” of building in SL isn’t quite so pure as the morally outraged builders allowed people to believe, as they’ve always allowed people to believe, while rightfully waving the banner. The emperor stands there at most in a bra and panties. And still the customers don’t care, as long as they get their toys.

      Now it’s time for people to blink and roll back the outrage exported to the groups of people who really don’t understand what’s going on, or who have only been shown one side of the issue. This is extremely difficult to do without admitting error by implication. However tainted, the moral behind the banner is absolutely correct, as far as it goes, and however sullied with self-interest. Those who have spoken out accusations and principles in groups have a vested ego interest in it now, so how to extricate themselves from the expressed extremes and not surrender the banner?

      I have some experience with this, as I was out in front in the war on VICE years ago. Although I stand by the facts to this day, I realized that in the end all the users cared about was their own experiences with it in SL. In short, no one gives a shit. So to all the builders my suggestion is accept, if not actually embrace, the change. Send representatives (with translators) to Dani and get him to discuss the issue. I suspect he’s more burnt on the it than you are. You were the aggressors in the Word War, so it’s up to you to make the first move. Sorry, he isn’t going to do it, it’s the nature of compromise. You are many, he is one.

      Or, you can do what Niki and I have talked about several times. The business has changed in SL permanently. Most of the interesting planes have been made, remade, and made again. There is very little room for improvement on mesh builds, from scratch or uploaded. The market is saturated, and you’re never going to be able to make the money you once did. The best other option is go start a nude beach, provide rent-by-the-hour skyboxes, make better mesh penises and sex balls…..SL users never seem to run out of money for those.

      Like

      • I don’t think it came out of competition or anti-competition. simply Talk to the builders who raised the red flag I took the time to do so and, found out the main worry was look you buy this product and you could loose it and your out of money.

        I am going to leave the political correctness aside as I looked at the wireframes and that the popular builder of airliners plane are form a commercial source and the aircraft are everywhere and, I can see the worry even as a airport manager when the hammer falls and these aircraft are gone what damage will it do to the community? Will they leave aviation entirely or just move back to the old reliable brands? either way aircraft builders and airport owners who are looking at the evidence are just looking at each other thinking “this is going to be bad.”

        Like

        • MeganAnn Mills says:

          Are you a mesh creator? Do you know what you’re looking at when you look at the wire frames and textures, or did you rely on the opinions of other builders who looked at them too? I have no doubt that they believe what they say, but others have looked at them and can’t tell. How many wire frames in different mesh object builds of the same RL plane by different artists on the internet have you looked at?

          I don’t create mesh, and I’m not an expert, but I DO know what you get when you have a converging “art” form of different people trying to make the exact copy of an engineered RL object to stuff into SL. I know there is a logical pattern that you MUST follow from the RL design to make it look like the RL object, and everyone is trying to make the EXACT same thing. There are limited options to approach in a logical manner in similar graphics programs to make it come out looking right.

          You can combine and separate different objects like wings and tail surfaces in a single mesh object for uploading and recombining in a link set depending on the LOD and LI you want or need. But as far as I can tell, the overall combined build should look pretty close to everyone else’s, or the thing won’t look like the RL item when it gets into SL.

          I don’t trust my expertise to know the difference, and I know my limits in judging it. I would have to rely on the opinions of people who know better than I do, and in the current inquisitional “BURN-THE-WITCH” environment, you’ll have to excuse me that I don’t. Everyone has biases, and I would rather not conclude anything, than conclude the wrong thing. I can live with the question, and approach it from a different angle to avoid burning the wrong witch.

          Like

          • Yes I have created 3D objects in Maya for reconstruction of archeological sites . Let me simply explain how Wire frames work. When creating an object in Maya or blender as in second life you start with a primitive object when you want to re-size a section of that primitive you add a “wire” to the frame this wire is than re-size and all other the intersecting lines adjust to intersect with the wire at its new location. As every builder is going to place the sections at no to same locations and archive similar results. No two wire frames will look the same if they are form different sources.

            Here’s a a tutorial on how to make an airplane in Maya to help clarify the issue

            Like

            • MeganAnn Mills says:

              Thank you very much for that link, it was very informative! I don’t know where he got the reference image, but it seems to my uneducated eye that there was only one way to get to the image he wanted, and the locations of the edges were guided by the reference image. If you’re using a much more precise draft to follow, wouldn’t it produce pretty much the same wireframe? Especially if you were a trained and experienced 3D artist? I didn’t see much “freehand” in that example at all, and what he did was all logically based on what the reference did.

              Like

              • There will always be small variations everyone thinks differently and, sees things differently one eye more dominant than the other etc. there are many ways to get the same result. Sadly Autodesk does not have their tutorials up so you can see more on how this is possible. But Wireframes are like fingerprints of yours is 100% with another in the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo “lucy you got some splainin to do.”

                Liked by 1 person

                • MeganAnn Mills says:

                  In that case, it should be pretty easy for the professionals at LL to look at the same evidence and come to the same conclusions……shouldn’t it?

                  Like

                  • Tank Kwaszes says:

                    Were it so easy, but the law actually forbids LL from getting involved unless they want to risk being held liable themselves. LL can only take down with a DMCA filing, and if a counter-file is placed then the original creator must take the other to court to force a removal. The process averages six years from start to finish.

                    Like

                  • MeganAnn Mills says:

                    So, it’s open season on uploading stolen mesh, since likely SL 1.0 will be gone by then anyway, and good luck trying to sue someone in another country. None of this self-appoints other builders to be the mesh police, so we’re back to the core issue. BTW, if you’re wrong and a builder can show a loss, aren’t you open to suit?

                    Like

        • Except the hammer isn’t falling on Dani. It has on a couple other makers and you all were strangely quiet about it. One would have thought you’d have used those small victories to fuel your FUD campaign, but no, it wasn’t Dani so it didn’t really matter. Don’t try to pretend this is anything other than a vendetta against one maker of aircraft, likely for the sole reason that he gained a good customer base and popularity without being part of that little clique of wanna be’s who thought they controlled the aviation market in SL. Well guess what? They found out different.

          How long have you all had to try to convince even one model maker to file a DMCA against Dani? How many times did we hear that it was imminent. How many times did you all flat out lie when he pulled his aircraft to rename them and remove Embraer’s logos and claimed he’d been DMCA’d. The fact is not one of you would ever have that information. LL sure as hell wouldn’t tell you and no competent lawyer would discuss anything like that with some dweeb from a virtual world. There hasn’t even been any so called evidence posted about anything since the Phenom 300 and I’m sure you all have looked hard for it.

          We’d never have left the old reliable brands if those makers had actually paid attention and made some modern general aviation aircraft and airliners. They didn’t and they lost out. Boo frigging hoo. Dani intentionally stayed with that market because it wasn’t competing with any of your friends in the hopes the drama would die down. Well guess what? The gloves are off. You finally managed to piss him off enough to abandon that policy. You and the others making smarmy comments about the upcoming release of the 109 helicopter have no fucking clue what’s coming. I’ve seen it flying multiple times and it makes everything else barring maybe Kelly’s in the hands of a real copter pilot look like VertiBird toys (look that up if you don’t know what it is). It’s about time somebody makes a flyable heli with torque control. I’m not even sure how he managed to get it working the way it does with SL’s inherent limitations, but it certainly does. That should also settle all the comments about his using freebie drop in scripts (which is another lie you and the others pass around to help calm the butthurt). It’s going to be a bitter pill and I’m going to enjoy watching as you all choke on it.

          Liked by 1 person

    • Sue Ravensworth says:

      “Maybe Dani is doing legitimate private deals to get the mesh. direct from the creator rather than through one of those sales sites.

      How can any of us be sure?”

      I’d like it was the case, as when I flew as passenger or a copilot for a SL airline they were fun to me, honestly. But, as honestly, things are as they are, not as we would like they are. Else we would just deceive ourselves. So that Dani is doing legitimate deals can be easily ruled out mainly for 2 reasons:
      1 – If Dani does, he and Bia would simply tell that. It would be easy. As Tig did.
      2 – It’s Dani himself not asserting that. Instead (Bia mostly) kept to assert it was all Dani’s original work, and that Dani is an amazing mesh maker, and so on – denying all the wireframe and texture evidences that everyone could verify by themselves (Ctrl+Shift+R). In keeping to assure it was just Dani’s work (thus not rips, downloads or deals), they went so far to show their so called “proofs”: Embaer website, with pictures of RL planes, to explain why textures looked exactly as the model in MS Flight Simulator. LOL. Then an E-120 model loaded into a 3D software. Everyone can do it: download a model, load it in Blender or Maya and then take a screenshot. Anyway their line was Dani made it by himself.
      So we can rule the deals hypothesis out.

      And now compare it with Tig. The only thing Dani & Bia did to “fix” it was: denying it all, grasping at straws, and eventually Dani renamed his planes as D-120, D-170…

      It doesn’t look like they behave the same.

      Like

      • Tank Kwaszes says:

        They also actively griefed (or at least Bia and her merry band) airports and stores of those who stood up in protest. Funny enough we didn’t have any intention of banning Bia or Danni (as I sure I most probably am at their store) till they started intentionally coming to cause problems.

        Like

        • MeganAnn Mills says:

          Some on he other side have felt that being kicked out of their airplane without warning as they entered HLS or HLT constituted an original “griefing”, Tank. I’ve had the same accusations raised against me while doing the same thing when someone is shooting up SLHA and it’s my job to stop them. This is a normal and common view of being a victim of that. Why is this not understood by people who have been in SL for YEARS?

          I do not support griefing in any form, including retaliation for perceived griefing, but come on! We all have seen this particular human drama played out for many years. Why is no one on the SLA side accepting that kicking potentially innocent customers of a disputed builder out of their airplane JUST MIGHT be a polarizing trigger that causes an even more extreme response?

          Look, the simple fact in SL is that NO one can stop griefing attacks, especially by the plethora of alts that LL allows, and LL itself has a different definition and level of griefing that must occur before they get involved. Everyone knows they can do it with impunity, just as you can, or anyone else. NONE of it happened before airport owners started throwing innocent people indiscriminately out of their airplanes without warning, for reasons they had nothing to do with. I’m so tired of people whining about protests over this. If you want to take the extreme action, then fine, suck it up and take the retaliation you KNOW is coming because of it.

          Like

          • Blackhawk Hird says:

            I was talking to one of the Unity Airport owners about the topic of pilots having their airplanes created by the people that an airport’s management does not like, returned to them while landing or taking off without any type of warning.

            Bodewadmi said to me that he was also informed that any of the airports in the Jeogeot Region would also return his aircraft.

            His response to this problem? He purchased his own airport where he makes the rules.
            Now everyone is allowed to use their aircraft in the Jeogeot Region.

            The old days of sabotaging the other content creators sales by not allowing their products to be used in the limited private estate fly zones are over.

            Like

          • Tank Kwaszes says:

            This took place prior to the creation of the CFR servers and infact was the precipitant.

            Like

            • Blackhawk Hird says:

              If I am reading your comment correctly Tank, the CFR was created to harass the pilots flying from Unity Airport?

              When the pilots at Unity ignored your two airports and continued to enjoy themselves in the Jeogeot Gulf, what was the response at Second Life Wright Brother’s Field?

              Cody007 Skytower and a few of the other pilots from your airfield set a large portion the airport on fire.

              Also the people from Second Life Wright Brother’s Field had helicopters shooting missiles at the terminal building while an advertised club event was going on inside in order to disrupt the people at Unity Airport’s fun..

              When people ignore a child, that child acts out in negative ways to seek attention.

              Like

              • Tank Kwaszes says:

                No, the CFR server was created to help administrators enforce rules at the airport following Bia and company actively rezing and blocking my airport at wright and covering my hangar with their vendors. Unity did not show up till after that all took place. We drew up the lines for CFR shortly after founding Fletcher and when Fletcher was founded unity and it’s surrounding land still belonged to the SAS. I have had nothing but fair dealings with Unity and both Gotha and Fey have been very kind and respectful.

                Like

                • MeganAnn Mills says:

                  On review one point needs to be made in this CFR stuff. They were blaming the gun instead of the shooter, and no one believes that wasn’t aimed primarily at the maker of the gun. Nor should anyone expect that they should. The gadget was disseminated freely (it was pushed) to other air fields, and brought into the Blake, which apparently has a different ethic of free access. Short-sighted, at best.

                  Like

                  • has mark forced the Removal of the CFR from HLS? until the sim owner says it is a NO the person paying the tier can place whatever they like.

                    Like

                    • MeganAnn Mills says:

                      Neither Mark nor Nber will prevent lease holders from banning whomever they want, as long as it’s within the covenant. Which frankly could not have anticipated this entire stupidity.I can tell you they don’t like it.

                      Like

                • MeganAnn Mills says:

                  Sorry, I should clarify. The CFR was given to Niki and she immediately asked me to look at it. Seeing who made it, I took it to a no script sand box and saw it had NO RIPPED MESH texture and used an API to gather information and take action. It can’t be any more clear it was intended to collect information and start a ban war on anyone a few people decided made ripped mesh objects.

                  Like

  12. Blackhawk Hird says:

    The following proverb that comes to my mind concerning all of the accusations about content theft in the Second Life aviation community.

    “The guilty dog barks the loudest”.

    I am at a loss of thoughts concerning who is right and who is wrong in the war of words and do not concern myself with the petty arguments from either side of the debate.

    The new story of the day is that S&W has also been involved with content theft.

    The beat goes on and on with no end in sight.

    With most of the content that I have purchased in Second Life, I usually become bored with the aircraft after a month or two. Then I am off purchasing another new type of aircraft which I enjoy and replace again when my interest in that object fades away.

    Losing an older airplane to a DMCA take down is not a risk for me as there are no antique collectable items within Second Life that appreciate over time as there are in Real Life.

    My choice of which type of aircraft that I do purchase is determined by what my mood for flying is at the time and I avoid the content creators products that are poisoning the community with their arguments and bad attitudes towards other aviation members.

    Unless a person sees their actual work being presented on the grid by another avatar, then the source of the content is no one else’s business.

    Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      I don’t know what’s worse…

      SJWs or Dani Cultists.

      Like

    • That pretty well sums it up. There are some older aircraft I’ll pull out and fly once in a while, but usually it’s the last 3 or 4 I’ve gotten that I fly on a regular basis. The only thing that having something DMCA’d would do is help reduce my inventory of an item I likely stopped using long since.

      Like

  13. Sam Puren says:

    Hi Folks,

    I am not a Second Life creator, just a consumer. I know absolutely nothing about how creators use mesh models or where they get them – what websites they use, and what the use restrictions are. I am tempted to say that most consumers in SL probably have no idea what “ripped” mesh is. I myself had no idea. I only stumbled upon this whole controversy rather accidentally while visiting a sim that banned it.

    I am trying to learn as much as possible, though, because I believe that consumers should be educated as much as possible before buying a product. However, there are far too many technical issues regarding the use of mesh. Even if we could tell by simply right-clicking the object and looking at the mesh, how would we be able to do that before actually obtaining the item? – not every item has a demo version.

    It is unrealistic to expect consumers to research every single purchase they make from every creator. This is especially true if almost every creator is using downloaded mesh. If there is no real way to tell if mesh is illegally downloaded, the customer cannot possibly be expected to be discriminating with their buying power.

    You have to give the consumer more credit than you are giving us – we DO care. We just don’t know everything.. yet.

    Our ignorance should not be mistaken for apathy.

    So, do a better job of educating us! Make me understand, so I can make informed decisions.

    If someone is using mesh illegally or against a TOS, then I don’t want hearsay or hyperbole – I want facts, substantiated with evidence. There must be well-established criteria for this. It appears that this has not happened yet, or it is still evolving. As a result, there is all this hostility between creators, and the rest of us are caught in the crossfire.

    Folks!- Really! – all i want to do is fly good planes In Second Life and have fun doing it. I am here to explore, to experience and to enjoy. I am sorry if that purpose seems too simplistic for some.

    Like

    • MeganAnn Mills says:

      Hi Sam…I, for one, very much appreciate your lack of apathy. The problem is there is no clear way to tell because the spectrum of stuff that falls into unoriginal work is wide and varied. you can have….

      1) absolutely ripped off mesh project from a web site that didn’t even need adjustment to fit into SL…usually with textures.

      2) ripped off mesh project that had to be modified to SOME degree to get it into SL with proper LOD and reasonable land impact with various levels of original textures.

      3) ripped off mesh base project that someone changed just enough to make it legally their own work, along with at least partially modified textures.(includes those with parts of different projects in them).

      4) made from scratch mesh project based on precise schematic plans that may or may not have a copyright attached to them, but clearly not original work either.

      5) made from scratch mesh project where the person mixed or imported any combination of 1,2,3, and 4 for design maps. Or simply knows the airplane like the back of her hand.

      Now, you can get ALL 5 of these levels without the “ripped” adjective associated by having license or permission from the original artist, but nonetheless not being original work.

      Add this to the fact that everyone here is trying to make exact copies of RL stuff, with only certain paths of logical progression you can follow to get the exactness into SL, and you have a tangled mess where “proof” is usually visual and subjective. You can see if something is made differently than a suspected original, thereby proving it’s NOT that original (unless it was changed in 2 and 3 by someone clever), but having it look exactly like someone else’s isn’t proof in a converging art form.

      All of this is rendered moot and pointless if someone got permission and license from the original artist, which the artist may or may not want to discuss with a third party. For LL to do anything about this, they have to have a DMCA filed by the original artist, not by those who claim it LOOKS like another one. If it were that easy and definitive to tell by looking, LL would probably accept the visual record. They don’t, which should tell you something of the value of that.

      All this noise about Dani, and no one I know of has filed a DMCA (except maybe over the name of an aircraft). I don’t know how many of the suspected victims of the supposed theft have been contacted by these people in SL who believe it’s ripped, but I imagine all of them. Yet no DMCA has been filed.

      Did the artist look at the issue and decide it wasn’t theirs? Did the artist think maybe it was, but didn’t want to go to the trouble to file, and if that was the case did Dani get an implied license after the fact? I have no idea, but I do know this has been going on a long time and nothing has been pulled yet.

      I could see continuing the war if a single, ANY, item Dani made was DMCA’d out of SL, but absent that, it has all the appearance of a witch hunt to many. That’s not to say there isn’t a witch, but until someone throws some holy water on him and sees smoke, it continues now to be an exercise of opinion that no one like you can find very useful to make a decision.

      Except that it’s clear if you don’t agree with the anti-Dani crowd (I’ll eschew the word cult as it’s as overused as “Nazi”), you’ll be punished if you buy one because you can’t fly it into some airports. Grab a torch and a pitchfork and you can fly anywhere you like.

      Like

      • And let’s make something clear. Even if a modeler gets an aircraft’s blueprints and/or some cad files and makes a model based on that, it’s still not 100% original work and might even be unauthorized use. Making a derivative work doesn’t necessarily make that yours to do with as you wish. If you want 100% safe and original work, find a maker doing fantasy aircraft of their own design. Cubey Terra has nice one available. There are a few others, but not many.

        Like

        • MeganAnn Mills says:

          …and to make it clear, I’m not a purist about this. the move from each level of “unoriginal” to the next is a relatively small one. The line of manufactured moral outrage at the nexus of one stage to the other is far too technical and arbitrary to elicit such self-righteous bullying as to abuse CUSTOMERS of one maker.

          NO one has proved Dani doesn’t have a license, or that he’s not a professional 3D model maker in RL, or any other justified relationship off-world that would answer the questions raised. Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Banning airplanes and flipping the bird to potentially innocent customers enmass IS impotent bullying.

          I am NOT a Dani customer or supporter, nor a “cultist”, and I don’t even know who they are, but this bullying behavior in SL is very old, and always comes back to bite the people who do it in the ass….yet no one learns. I object to absence of principle for the sake of principle.

          Liked by 1 person

          • We had the glaring example of what happened in the sailing community to look at and see what could happen and people were still willing to tear it apart in an effort to be ‘right’

            The sailors are mostly back sailing without the drama again because they finally realized sailing was more fun than petty arguments about who controlled what or used which scripting in their boats. Maybe we’ll be able to do the same at some point.

            Like

            • malcious says:

              That starts with you Crim.

              Like

              • MeganAnn Mills says:

                I’m not up on all the group stuff, but from what I’ve seen Crim is defending from original attacks of the anti-Dani people. The way you do that with people you perceive as bullies, is push back.

                Are you one of those who believes it’s not an argument until you defend your position from an attack? If so, I gotta hook you up with my mom. It starts on BOTH side, but shutting up a defending side only just allows the attacks to stand.

                Like

              • How so? I’m not telling anybody else what aircraft to use. I’m just maintaining my right to use any aircraft I choose in SL that LL allows to be on the grid without being harassed about it. I expect that right for others as well. I’d say it starts with those trying to police the grid with authority they don’t actually have using bullying tactics, FUD campaigns, and outright lies to further their agenda.

                Like

                • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

                  Yet I’ve been harassed by proxies of Dani. That and now there are certain individuals harassing certain airports. They’re being clever about saying they aren’t part of Dani’s camp, but they are showing their colors.

                  Like

                  • Deal with anyone griefing an airport as a griefer. That said, you stir a hornet’s nest and you are going to get some stings. It wasn’t those who buy and fly Dani’s aircraft who started the stirring either. I don’t agree it should be happening. Wright Brothers, Frank Fletcher, and Honah Lee Surf could sink into the sea and barely affect the modern aviation flyers. It shouldn’t be that big a deal to simply avoid going to those.

                    Like

  14. Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

    Seems another one of Tig’s third party designs might be a DL.
    https://tmcgregorblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/another-concern-with-swproduct/

    Like

    • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

      Note the reason why I’m bringing this up is unlike a certain individual, Tig will own up and deal with the problem.

      Like

    • Blackhawk Hird says:

      Do you troll very much Rathbone?

      Earlier on this blog you were accusing Crim of being a troll.

      Now that the eyes of the readers are on another blog page, you decide to post a link that the moderators in the Second Life Aviation group ban anyone within seconds after speaking about the topic within the group’s chat.

      What are my thoughts about any of the accusations presented by both sides of the illegally uploaded content debate?

      If the Linden Lab employees are allowing the content and no one has stepped forward to file a DMCA, then the content is considered legit.

      If any of the suspected uploaded models are yours, then file your take downs and have it removed from Second Life.

      If the content is not yours, then mind your own business and leave the other content creators alone.

      Like

      • Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

        Actually I was led down a primrose path posting this. The egg is on my face, but too late as I’ve just lost a close friendship over this Dani/Tig bullshit.

        Like

  15. Capt. Rebecca S. Rathbone says:

    Being I can’t remove posts I made there’s two things I should say.

    1: I’m sorry to Tig, as I should have considered the source.
    2: I am IRATE. This McGregor fellow is on my shitlist.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Robbby Brinner says:

    Flight1 and FeelThere came from a community of FS9 (versions before and after). A lot of the planes were free on AVSim and then they weren’t. I purchased several over the years. Relative to SL, I agree with many of the concerns raised about ownership of the original model and how it is being used and perhaps abused within SL.

    The topic over Air Tractor is interesting. Air Tractor is about 60 miles away from me, should I go talk with them directly? I went to college with a member of the Snow family who still owns the company. Would they care because it seems to me they own the name/trademark which would trump some gaming software creator outside of SL with no intention of coming inworld? Perhaps they should and compete here. I don’t know Tig though I have traded an IM with her when I ventured into a sailing race. She was nice and from the posts and comments, I respect her integrity.

    I guess I’m trying to understand why all of this matters. If you see someone speeding and you’re not a cop, does it matter the other person is speeding? No, you watch your own speed. Until there is a criminal or civil judgment, all that is happening is the throwing of stones. Sure Linden Labs could become involved but they have problems of their own just keeping the game from imploding technically and lately, they haven’t seemed that engaged in community battles.

    What I would like to see from builders (planes, cars, bikes and boats) is a disclaimer or declaration that what they have created is either of their own design, purchased from the original builder/designer or that they have authorization to resell the model inworld with any disclosed limitations.

    Only then can the consumer be made aware and then make an informed purchase. Then again, some people just like to bitch. Where do I stand in this, I’m a consumer and I buy your stuff. I also encourage to buy your stuff. Perhaps that doesn’t matter.

    Like

  17. Tig Spijkers says:

    I built this:
    https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Kaneda-Fighter-Advanced-Tactical-Vehicle-with-Smart-Weapons-Shields-Warp-Drive-and-Transporter-system/5762982

    I can show you the original model from 2007, it even has the original textures I put on it.
    My name is not mentioned anywhere on this model even after I had a nice chat with Life about it, but it’s ok.
    It mentions that it is now partially mesh, so Life Camino has added not only her own scripts, but has also updated and improved the model. As far as I am concerned this is hers now and that too is OK!
    I am not going to be THAT Asshole who is going to file a DMCA on a model that has inspired the creativity in someone else to take and evolve it further and make it better.
    I know where it is from and in a private way I am proud someone even after nearly a decade is still using and selling it.

    Like

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