Hi My name is Terry and I fly planes on the Internet

And boy oh boy have I got a bone to pick.

You see I’ve been hearing this same old argument back and forth and back and forth between content creators for too long that I just ain’t really wanting to take any notice of them. You know what it sounds like to me? Children playing squabble in the yard over some wooden stick they found and I keep hearing them yellin’ while I’m trying to watch me dam TV.

So when it comes to Second Life I tend to ignore it and I purchase whatever plane I dam well please thank you very much.

As long as the Linden Lab employees are allowing said content to exist in Second Life and no real world company has filed a DMCA, then no other person within Second Life has any business or right to harass the people providing these models.
It is not any other person’s job to police the Second Life grid unless they were hired by Linden Lab to do so.
One message that I have heard repeatedly and agree with in this debate.

I do not purchase content or visit the establishment of the people causing this drama and I warn others to do the same, how dare they tell me how I should be havin’ fun. You get me?

Now Second Life is a place for people like me to come kick back and relax and I don’t care about no-ones pathetic child-like squabbles. If that is too much for you then go ahead and click that big X at the top right of the screen and leave us good folk to our business.



This is the typical sort of comment I get every time I post something. Though I’ve made Terry and his complaint up; his argument is almost word for word for the countless number of comments, notecards and IM’s I get on a daily basis, most of them get cleaned up and deleted by the spam filter, which I’ve set to catch posts like this, not because they are spam but because they are the biggest load of Horse Shit ever conceived.

Allow me to explain.

Firstly if you take the time out to read something and the comment on it don’t give me that bullshit that you’re doing it because you don’t care, you spent time thinking those words (I hope) and possibly even longer typing them, that requires effort and not caring about something does not translate into effort. It starts with you ignoring the one notice I put out every week or so in the one group I post in, which is one of the least difficult things you can do.

I mean I’m just grasping at straws here but one would assume that my one single notice is easier to ignore that the hundreds of Hanger rental notices that pour out of every Aviation themed group every day. Which most people seem to be completely unphased by, unless of course these same people respond in IM’s and notecards in the same manner of:

Dear Sir,

I am but a simple man and I simply cannot adhere to the sheer vast scale of such deals on yonder hanger rentals to which you offer me. Please desist.

My sociology friends tell me it has something to do with humanities constant need to seek approval from others, which is why we spend hours taking pictures of our food and uploading them to freindface or bookfreind or whatever it’s called. I’m not so convinced but really this is all distracting us from the elephant in the room. And that is this:

What kind of fucked up bullshit logic are you fucking using here?

Oh I’m ‘sorry’ that the protests of a few Aviation Builders trying to protect their livelihood is such a major inconvenience for you that you have to suffer actually noticing it but are you seriously claiming the moral high ground by blockading them? Are are you genuinely in the smug belief that “for ethical reasons” you wont buy nor support the products, services nor regions of those “causing the drama” but feel free to support the guy they are protesting against, who is unapologetically trying to destroy their businesses BY BREAKING THE LAW. And don’t give me that “well if it’s on the Grid then Linden labs must approve of it” Bullcrap, you know what else is on the Grid? Greifer weapons, graphics crashers, sim crashers, hacking tools and kiddie porn, you want to sit there and tell me that Linden Labs personally approves all of those. Course they don’t because that’s not how it fucking works and you know it.

What we have here is a situation where supporters of the builders who have been ousted as illegally downloading and selling products that they stole cannot physically justify their actions in a morally pleasing way. They like what they bought and they don’t want to give it up just because it’s illegal, but that’s not a good cause that’s a selfish cause, so instead those protesting illegal downloads must be demonised as much as possible and the justification for why gets increasingly more bizarre and bullshit as the argument goes on to the point where any mention that content theft is a ‘bad thing’ is seen as victimisation of the ‘poor innocent’ downloaders who are ‘just trying to make a living among all the hate and drama’ and the witch-hunt begins.

Fuck off.

No seriously, fuck off you selfish self-centred asshole.




And another thing. Dani DOES have a DMCA against him, several in fact. This is why his Commander is no longer on the market. The Phenom is also under protest and thus why it was briefly removed from marketplace. It’s back because Dani put in a counter-claim so it has to be settled in court. An American Copyright court to be exact which has a three year waiting list. The company claiming copyright is based in Chile, Dani is Brazilian. So it’s a non-american vs a non-american regarding virtual property. Not a case that’s got priority so we could be talking up to six years before it’s resolved.

I also have a copy of that DMCA as well as LL’s acceptance of it and Dani’s counter claim. I may publish if requested.


25 thoughts on “Hi My name is Terry and I fly planes on the Internet

  1. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the Commander was pulled from MP because of the name, not because anyone filed against the mesh build. It has not been pulled from the database. Not all DMCA’s are created equal, and it’s much easier to get LL to pull something because of Text or Logo copyright than one mesh maker copying a RL object over another mesh maker copying a RL object, neither of which own the object in RL.

    A long time ago someone got Wilder Mustang pulled from MP because it said “Mustang” in the ad. In no one’s wildest imagination did Niki’s sculpts resemble anyone else’s, and DMCA’s filed over text and logo does (did) not require the owner of the text or logo to file. LL looked at it from a complaint from another resident, made a judgment, and acted.

    Apparently all that’s needed to crucify someone in SL is the accusation in the form of a DMCA. It’s not either builder’s fault that the Courts are jammed up from the playground noise of people screeching like the seagulls in Nemo, “MINE! MINE! MINE!”, but it appears NO one has the discipline or maturity to live with the question until it’s decided. The vigilantes using the problems with the Courts as an excuse to take matters into their own hands has little to do with justice and more to do with control, in my opinion.

    What I take from most of this article, aside from the obvious attempt to paint the other side as ignorant (which of course in a logically corrupted device of argument means yours is intelligent by contrast) is simply saying that one side is morally justified to behave immorally, while the other is not. Presumably because only intelligent people are justified to act from a “higher” moral purpose? A difference without much of a distinction logically, no less hypocritical, and despite appearances to the contrary due to the logically fallacious ad hominem tone, somewhat shallow.


  2. Cpt. Matt Nova says:

    If you are going to condemn us who don’t want to be involved in the aviation infighting because we bought a plane we just liked and wanted to fly, but had no idea was it was deemed “illegal” by someone, are you going to set up a database we can reference to see what we can and can’t buy and why?
    We walk into a vendor area or browse MP and go, “Oh wow, I want one of these” and we buy it. Then we find out it can’t be landed at half the airfields in SL because of a lot of bickering. How were we supposed to know this before we bought? Are we supposed to log into SL Aviation chat and ask permission to buy a certain airplane, igniting the whole argument again and no one answers the original question?
    And you folks wonder why SL aviation is dying.


    • malcious says:

      I think you’ve grasped the wrong end of the stick here. You can buy whatever you want I don’t care. What I do care about and what I’m ranting about in this post are people who refuse to support people like Tank and buy their products on principle that they are “causing all the drama” while supporting the people are actually breaking the law and downloading.
      You can buy whatever you want and be neutral or ignore the entire political situation if you want, just so long as you actually DO remain neutral and shut up about it.


      • I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, but most of the people I know who refuse to buckle under the manufactured outrage, and buy what they like regardless, also own at least one of Tank’s planes. The people in the middle who you seem to raise as a strawman that should sit down and shut up aren’t boycotting anything. That’s pretty much the point they make. The boycotters aren’t in the middle, and the middle people aren’t the boycotters. That’s why they’re in the middle.


  3. Perhaps it is time to publish those copies and end the “its over the name” or it was pulled for updates” arguments. It is time people have seen some black and white evidence from either side that they can actually look at and understand.

    Not every on has the skills to understand the posts at the Mesh thieves blog and therefore take the side that feels the more way they do about the issue many cognitive biases come into effect with this whole issue such as Ambiguity effect, Anchoring, Backfire effect, Band wagon effect, Choice-supportive bias to name a few Heck go look at the list yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

    Time to Shatter those Illusions Publish the DMCAs


    • Publish any documents you like, it still hasn’t been adjudicated. From the story I heard, the offended off-world creator, which apparently has a legal department, had one of the anti-Dani supporters in SL represent their DMCA paperwork to LL.

      This strikes me as a legal department that doesn’t think it’s worth their time to handle it themselves, and has the appearance to me that anti Dani supporters in SL had to put roller skates on them and push them across the finish line to a DMCA.

      Maybe I don’t have all the facts, but it didn’t look normal to me as represented, but then I didn’t ask many questions about it either.


      • Thank you for proving my point about Cognitive bias your repeated use of the phrase “anti-Dani supporters” is a prime example.

        While yes Dani is the “Poaster child” of this Intellectual property Argument. it is only because he is the most visible other builders such as AEB&W, Fastronix, Aerofly and Darem Darkfold were tagged in the genisis of the major debate as we now see it.

        The fact is this is more than an argument over Dani’s planes it is an argument over possible theft. This is a strong moral issue that nobody wants to support the act of. So we as humans use methods of coping when such ugly words as theft when it effects the side of the question we support. This results in the Mind turning it into “These guys are raising issues of the maker of this object I like they are picking on him and that is mean!”

        People even get emotionally charged when the thought of loosing an object they own comes into effect. I am going to recount my personal experience with how I was thrown into the debate and my early thinking when it happened.

        At one time I too owned and flew some Dani planes they look nice and have some fun ideas in them and were a welcome addition to my aircraft collection. Shortly after I bought the E-120 someone told me about the questions about the origins if the mesh models of the Dani aircraft and linked me to the sl mesh thieves blog. I read the blog and Initially refused to believe what I was reading and thinking to myself these wire frames have to be selectively edited” “I am an intelligent person I would have been able to tell if these were stolen” shortly after I began to think “What if this blog is right I could loose those aircraft!”

        Problem is now we are Spit as two Tribes who hate each other and both sides are equally guilty of causing problems. The One side should have handled bringing there Points to the world with a little more tact. The other side harassing and cussing at airport owners yes it is these actions that are the reason why most of the second aviation airports are now closed it was not boycotts the Owners were sick of paying thousands of dollars a month for the privilege of being cussed at.


        • Well, “cognitive bias” is a catch-all that can be used to describe and dismiss any argument at all in human interaction. Your comments don’t escape it either as potential off-point motivation. Motivation of the person arguing is not necessarily relevant to the point being argued, and is ad-hominem by definition. it cannot be proved by the language used, as you ascribe.

          I used the term “anti-Dani” because others have in the context of this long discussion. I didn’t make it up, and its a convenient point of reference and language that everyone was already using. The group clearly exists as the term describes, whether they have other cognitive biases happening at the same time (moral imperative is also a cognitive bias attached to ego), or not. To be free of cognitive biases you have to be dead, and they exist in both sides. So, what’s your point, besides ad-hominem obfuscation?

          What makes you think cognitive bias in principles related to self-interest is any more noble? Or cognitive bias by empathy to victims is? There is no such thing as true altruism, and even the most unselfish acts can be traced to a motivation of self. “my cognitive bias is more noble than yours” is a cognitive bias in itself. None of this helps the situation unless everyone extends their cognitive bias to that of SL Aviation as a whole, rather than their side in a dispute, and that’s not going to happen. So the whole cognitive bias issue strikes me as a cognitive masturbation.

          While I agree that both sides are equally to blame, I dispute your delineation of premise that one side is harassing and the other side simply didn’t explain themselves well enough. Harassment has happened from both sides. Perhaps your inability to see it is a consequence of your own cognitive biases?


        • BuffyFoster says:

          Well the liars and thieves and their cult followers have won on SL, so they can just have fun with that. I’m not spending one more dollar or one more minute supporting a “community” that insists on treating liars and thieves as being just as legitimate as honest builders.


          • wow! Do you actually know of a community in SL that doesn’t have liars and thieves who aren’t treated as legit by some, who are all unified behind the same unerringly strict moral values uniformly applied to all? Oh wait, I may have just described a cult.

            If it doesn’t happen in RL, no reason to expect it to happen in SL. What I don’t completely understand is why all this surprises people.


  4. Tig Spijkers says:

    Why are we still beating this dead horse?
    I mentioned to Karl and Tank months ago that no matter what we do from here on, Dani will be the victim and we will be the bad guys.
    The more we try to educate the Dani fan base more the they are going to retaliate with griefing and slander.
    Not only is Dani the most successful and best selling aircraft creator in SL, but now we have his fanatic fans spreading the word to boycott brands such as THI, AMOK, Laminar and S&W.
    So what to do from here on?
    Easy, accept Dani and his fans have won and get back to doing what we most enjoy; creating amazing innovative aircraft for amazing people!


    • Mikes String says:

      A friend shared this drama with me. I spent a few days reading through the posts and reviewing others blogs. I have owned every kind of vehicle since 2008 from Tig’s helicopters, THI, AMOK, Erick Gergan, DSA and others. It bothers me deeply that builders are fighting this battle and it bothers me the battle exists at all. The market is shrinking and you’re in a fight causing the market to shrink more. Nobody wins a war, despite what might be thought, there is always a cost to fighting. This argument reminds me of the Lord of the Flies.

      I just buy stuff I like and I’ll confess to having been ignorant about how cool looking items come inworld. I can tell you what makes a vehicle good or bad but for the most part I bought what worked. No, I don’t own a Dani Airplane though I know people who do and they like them. They also like DSA, AMOK and Tig’s aircraft. What I noticed in comparison to when I started SL, there are fewer active aircraft builders in SL. Bike builders are abundant and I suspect making a lot of money. Aviation, even with a shrinking number of sellers, aviators are losing interest.

      What I’ve learned in business is the best way to beat a bad business is to build a better business If your competitors, having been ACCUSED rather than ADJUDICATED of bad acts, continue to build an edge on market share, compete with them and beat them with better products. If you’re in this to make money, that’s what you do and I applaud your success. Give the consumers what they want with better textures, interior features, better performance and realistic models. If you don’t, people will go do something else and the market will continue to shrink.

      Companies like FeelThere and Carenado will come in to SL and start marketing their products. I guarantee what they bring will be far more superior to Dani Airplanes and they will do so legitimately because they do own the models outright, they have the brain power to handle the scripting and they have proven capable at repaints. Folks, a great storm may be coming.

      Here’s my observation, how many people in SL fly aircraft? Is the population of aviators growing, staying the same or declining? When people are banned from a sim or their aircraft is prohibited from being used on a sim, that’s fine and within the sim owner’s rights. From a strategic and business point of view, doesn’t that behavior drive away customers from you, your competitors or your enemies? This hurts the industry, the behavior on all sides, because it hurts consumers. Consumers are the people paying for your creations or what you’re selling. When they stop paying, this debate dies as does the industry.

      I agree with Tig (and who the hell am I…nobody really) this is a dead horse continually beaten by some blogger who wants what all bloggers want…attention. I agree with Megan in her reasonableness about the arguments. Here is what I ask and I will suggest the consumers will ask, put aside the swords, build some great aircraft and let’s make SL aviation fun again.

      I’ve been in SL a long time and though RL has taken a far greater priority, I still sneak to fly and sail. Having lived at Honah Lee for years before my hiatus, I spent a lot of time at the Honah Lee airport and Hollywood. Aviation in SL was a love. After reading your comments, I just have a bad taste about the motivations of the SL aviation builders. Please prove me and my fellow consumers wrong and get back to work.



      • Cornelius Fanshaw says:

        I think you make a good point Mike. All this is driving people away from aviation in SL… or at least driving them out of the groups that discuss it a lot. Most people just want to see and discuss the positive aspects of the hobby.

        The emphasis should be on inclusion and drawing people in. If they fly the “wrong” planes, don’t return the planes or ban them, show them the “good” planes. The way to win people over is to lead by example. Make better planes, be nice to people, organize events, show people what’s being developed. In short, make them feel part of the process and involved. It’s no good hiding in a skybox expecting people just “know” your products are better, you have to actively sell your products, your brand and yourself. Tig does a good job of that. Some of the others in this debate don’t! It’s not Dani stealing customers, it’s lack of salesmanship on the part of Dani’s competitors that is the problem.

        (On a side note Mal, maybe some articles on the positive side of SL Aviation are due? That would do more to improve things for everyone by hopefully encouraging more people (and potential customers) into aviation, not depressing them and driving them away!)


        • …..: I agree with Corny


        • you are aware That other builders are very open about there progress? Aeon Posts Screenshots of his projects to the AMOK group, DSA has a live stream of his building and had his current display, Tank has his current projects out on display at Write brothers. and also streams his builds. Kelly Works on the Ground level at cheerport. you will see Zora working on his latest project over at Write or fletcher and he is a super nice guy you should stop buy and say hello.

          the closed overly secret builders are very rare. in SL

          Granted your less apt top see the Jeogiot builders of you never venture from the blake.


      • BuffyFoster says:

        LOL “We’re gonna support liars and thieves, so you honest builders better just get back to work making stuff for us too.”

        Yeah, I’m sure they’ll get right on that.


        • I realize this may be a bit “nuanced” for you, but probably most Dani supporters and just customers believe they are neither thieves nor liars. So, they do not support liars and thieves because…..and this is the important part……they do not believe you. Let me say it another way, they think you are wrong. No one I have heard has said “we support liars and thieves”. They support what YOU believe are liars and thieves, there is a difference.

          Others will live with the open question until it is adjudicated by someone established as OBJECTIVE and qualified. As for other builders, most are still building, so yeah, they are on it. As always, you and everyone else are free to vote with your lindens.


    • Rebecca Rathbone says:

      That is EXACTLY what they want. Capitulation. IT’s their methodology from the start.


      • Capitulation is a goal, not a methodology. The methods of the other side were, what? Pee in their own pool because someone else was changing the shape of it with a shovel that didn’t belong to them?


        • malcious says:

          There are people who would pollute their own beaches, trash their own homes and poison their own food rather than admit to being wrong.


  5. Cornelius Fanshaw says:

    I’m not talking about “openness” or how they build stuff, I’m referring to the lack of salesmanship. Having your planes on display on your own land in the Gulf and posting a couple of work in progress shots once or twice a year in your own group (which is only likely to contain people that already know about you!) is not really getting the word and brand out to the public. They need to reach out more to people that haven’t heard of them, join in the chat with other aviation groups and become more a part of the community. Look how Tig keeps the W&S and SLA groups going with active participation all the time. If you can’t face dealing with the public, hire someone else to do it. I know Aeon used to use Whitewolf and later Tom Box, but even they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Joe Sparrow has someone new organising events for him and Tank and Karl have Mal to plug their stuff (which is what he should be doing right now rather than keeping Danigate rumbling on!)
    Luckily I’m able to keep abreast of thing in development as I “live” in Jeogeot, but there are many people in the wider community that really don’t get to hear of much of this.

    As an aside, I’m hoping that Mal will do an article on Jeogeot soon, as the area has improved since the early days when many people were driven away by the behavior out there. Unfortunately the reputation still lingers and it hard to draw people back. Again, that is going to be a case to reaching out to other groups and trying publicise the Gulf and pull those groups together into something cohesive.

    In both these cases it’s time for people to put past grievances aside and work together to build the aviation community up, not factionalise it. Bringing more people in, means more customers, which is better than fighting over a shrinking user-base.


    • Oh? What happened to the Gulf mantra that chanted “Don’t fly in a combat zone if you don’t want to get shot at”? I visited there long enough to help Niki and Ram get some planes done, and then got the hell out of Dodge.

      During that time I was harassed while working by people driving by in AT ships that shoot across sim borders, and had to test by flying up and down the Gulf at full speed to avoid getting pounced. Finally I had to push back by using my old hud to sink a battleship (or whatever it was) to establish that I wasn’t to be messed with anymore, earned public outcries of “CHEATER” in a game they never bothered to find out if I was playing, and admittedly entertaining demands to ban me from the Gulf.

      Did someone muzzle and leash the dogs of war out there? Publish a list of non-combatants? Or did someone decide to revive the old rule of civility, long since destroyed by role play in SL combat, to first make sure whoever you’re shooting at actually wants to play with you?


      • Velen.Forager says:

        I always check my targets, if they’re metered they’re fair game, if not then I leave them be, this is something I have always done, if I ever make a mistake I apologize.

        Sorry to hear others in Jeogult haven’t been nearly as curteous to you however, it’s not something I can condone. However I have flown in non-combat aircraft in Jeogult without being attacked many times now much less without being attacked repeatedly in one day. Must’ve been a while back or you were horrendously unlucky.


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